Ep029: Baby sleep myth——with Dr. Vyas

 
www.deepintosleep.co

Dr. Nilong Vyas

with Dr. Yishan Xu

 

TODAY’S GUEST

Dr. Vyas is following her passion for teaching families how to achieve optimal and sound sleep in a loving and safe manner. Just as a child needs to be taught to eat, read or dress themselves – they also need to be taught how to sleep. For if they master the skill to soothe themselves, this leads to the ability to master many other aspects of their overall being.

Dr. Nilong Vyas is a board-certified pediatrician and mother of two beautiful boys. She was raised by educator parents in New Orleans and went on to earn a Masters in Public Health degree from Tulane University as well as a Medical Doctorate from LSU Health Sciences Center. After completing her Pediatrics residency at LSU she worked as an ER Physician at Children’s Hospital in New Orleans. She subsequently chose to join private practice at Lake Vista Pediatrics in Lakeview where she learned much about both children and their parent’s needs as well as establishing nurturing relationships with her patients.

Seven years and numerous sleep consults later, she decided to begin her own sleep consultancy business thus, in 2014, ‘Sleepless in NOLA’ was born. She is a firm believer in the value of sleep (for the well-being of both children and their parents) and the need for healthy sleep habits. Her mantra ‘from good sleep comes good eaters, readers and behaviors’ is what the foundation of her practice is based in. She passionately believes that well-rested children develop better socially, emotionally as well as educationally with fewer behavior problems. And if the child is sleeping well, their caretaker will sleep better too and the result will be a more harmonious household for all.

Dr. Vyas was recently named the Women in White Coats Hero of the Year for 2019!


WHAT WILL WE LEARN

Common sleep problems with children age 4 mon to 4 years old:

  • Inability to fall asleep independently

  • Multiple overnight wakeups

  • Not staying at their rooms overnight

Common nap length (each kid’s need could vary):

  • Normally 1-1.5h nap each time

  • 12-18 month old, the frequency reduces to about 2 naps a day

  • After about 2 years old, mostly consolidate to one nap a day, and each time 2-3 hours.

Parents can pay attention to the signals/cues the babies give out:

  • If a child wakes up unhappy from a short nap, they have a better chance to go back to nap more if given the opportunity.

  • Babies are good at picking up on parents’ anxiety which make them more difficult to relax and sleep.

    • Early sleep cues

    • Middle sleep cues

    • Late sleep cues

Tips for parents to reduce the amount of time spent putting a baby to sleep:

  • Soothing bedroom routine

  • Consistent bedroom routine

  • Watch out to the sleep cues

Should parents check on babies?

  • Yes it’s ok, don’t check on them for more than several minutes each time.

  • Do NOT stay in the room to comfort them for a very long time.

  • Parents can check in with the babies multiple times as needed, short each time.

  • “I love you. Now it is time for sleep. I will see you in the morning.“

Pros and Cons of Snoo

  • Helpful but could be too dependent on it?

  • Buy a Snoo vs. Hire a sleep consultant?


RESOURCES

You can follow her on social media to see what she is up to:

Some online articles for your reference:

Thank You for Listening!

Newsletter and Download Free Sleep Guidence E-Book:

CBT-I Courses:

Podcast Links:

Transcript

-  0:00  

have got many questions from young moms about their children's sleep. For example, if our baby is only several months old, or one year old or two year old moms, dads always wonder how much sleep my baby should get. Should they take enough naps? If at night, they cry, should I go to care for the Comforter? Or should I just leave them there and do my own thing? So I don't reinforce the crying behavior. But if I do so, will that impact my baby's psychological development? As parent? What should I do exactly, to help my baby to sleep well, and grow into a healthy, happy human being in the future? Today, we are very happy to invite Dr. Vyas with us to share with us her expertise How to coach parents to help younger children, especially those age from four months old to four years old to sleep better. Dr. Vyas is a Board Certified pediatrician and a mother of two beautiful boys. And she started her own business called Sleepless in Nola around 2014. She is a strong believer in the value of sleep for both the well being of children and the parents. From good sleep comes good eaters, readers and behaviors is the foundation of her whole practice. And she provides coach to parents all over the world, through videos and in person visit to improve the children's sleep habits. What is really cool is that vs was recently named the woman in white coats hero for the year for 2019. Okay parents with young babies. Let's go to listen and find what her suggestions are.

-  2:16  

Welcome to deep into sleep with Dr. yishan xu. Let's improve sleep quality and live a healthy life together. Let's go deep into sleep. And now please welcome your host Isha.

-  2:34  

Hello, everyone, this is Asian. So today, it's such an honor for us to have Dr. Vyas with us. Welcome Dr. Vyas.

-  2:43  

Hi. Thank you for having me. I'm so happy to be talking about sleep with you.

-  2:48  

Yes, I'm so excited to I know your child sleep specialists. What do you do in your practice? What kind of age group Do you work with? Mostly, I am a pediatric Sleep

-  3:00  

consultant pediatrician by training, and I left private practice six years ago to start my own business helping parents how to teach their kids how to sleep through the night. And my most common clients are infants and toddlers as well as preschoolers. And the kids can range from age from four months to four years. And the most common presenting problems are typically multiple overnight wake ups, inability to fall asleep independently, as well as not staying in their rooms overnight. I also help families with newborns to get the baby started on good sleep hygiene and habits from the get go. And I meet with these families, either for a quick one hour consultation on the phone or a three hour consultation in their homes. If they're local, in person, if they're not then via Skype or FaceTime and talk with them in depth on how to sell their child sleep issues. Sometimes it's a quick fix. And other times it involves a more intensive approach. But regardless of the type of consultation, I work with all my families to help them establish a proper foundation of sleep based on the child's sleep cues, their developmental needs, as well as work with parents on gradually eliminating the associations, the child has the falling asleep.

-  4:23  

Wow, that's great, and especially great that you are able to actually offer those kinds of consultation online. That sounds like parents can really learn and benefit from some strategies, even if you are not there, coaching them side by side.

-  4:42  

Exactly. Yeah. With this new technology of the internet and, you know, live streaming and you know, all of the teleconferencing tools available. I can pretty much go into their homes, through the FaceTime app or Escape, or any of the other tools that are available and that way I can not only have sort of a face to face conversation with them, but also see the child's room and offer suggestions as far as that's concerned as well.

-  5:14  

Wow, that's great. Regarding this age group, it's very young sounds like four months to four years old. So that's a big range from toddlers, infants, preschoolers. So is there any difference in their their sleep across different age, like how long they need for sleep, how they sleep generally.

-  5:38  

Yeah, so the

-  5:41  

the amount of time that a child should sleep for naps is about an hour and a half for all kids of all ages. So if they're napping, most likely it should be about an hour, hour and a half. Once toddler start to consolidate their naps into just one nap for the day that typically happens around two years of age. It can increase to it Three hours now. But what does vary from child to child is the amount of sleep or the number of naps a child should take based on their age group. So for example, newborns can sleep up to 20 hours a day split up into our now our hour to an hour and a half. Now it's up to six naps a day, whereas a child, one sit around for four to six months of age, they may have more wakeful periods. Their naps decrease down to four to five naps a day. And after six months, it can drop down to three to four naps a day, and typically around 12 to 15 months or even up to 18 months. It can be just two naps a day and after two years of age, it's just one nap, as I mentioned earlier, and then around three to six years, that's when napping typically stops for most kids. And you know, this is a lot of numbers and a lot of information and often it's hard for parents to know when that transitional stage happens at what age and at what time the child should transition from four naps to three naps are even down to one nap.

-  7:04  

And that's where sleep consultant can come in

-  7:08  

as a as a great tool to kind of guide them as to when to transition and how to transition.

-  7:15  

Mm hmm. Yeah, definitely all those numbers. It's very hard to remember. Yeah. And I would assume different child actually slightly different, right, just a two year old and another two year old, their nap may look different.

-  7:32  

Yes, absolutely. Each child can vary. These are numbers based on general developmental stages and milestones, and most kids typically fall into these timeframes. Of course, I've had families where the 10 month old was, you know, down to two naps with which isn't very typical. And I've had 18 month olds taking three naps a day, which isn't very typical. So you're gonna have these outliers, but for most kids, that's the amount of naps that they need for their age range. And I think what's difficult is parents trying to juggle the amount of sleep the child needs plus trying to get through to activities that they want them to participate in. And you know, struggling with like life and societal pressures and and then their actual developmental needs of how much sleep they need. And most kids need way more sleep than they're being offered. Hmm, yes, I can get tricky.

-  8:32  

Right. So if a baby takes multiple naps during the day, so you mean like each nap should be about one and one half hours?

-  8:42  

Yes. Yeah. And you know, when when I tell most parents that during our initial consultation, they're always shocked though I go, my child could never do that. They've never slept that much in their life. And then after they go through the process, they're like, Oh my gosh, I I see that they are capable. Sleeping that amount of time, and then they do sleep better. And when they wake up, they're happier and more alert and more able to interact with their environment, because they're better rested. So I think the tendency is to just in our society, just the perception of you no less sleep is better, because you'll sleep enough when you die. And you'll sleep enough when there's time for it. And there's too many other interesting things. I hear parents all the time, say, my kid has so much FOMO they want to be awake and alert and participating in all the activities. But it's during sleep that those neuronal connections get made, and they, the brain develops and they learn what they're supposed to learn developmentally for their age, is during sleep. So it's super important to stress to parents that children need more sleep than they need activities. Um,

-  9:58  

yeah, that's so important. message for parents to know, right? Children actually needs more sleep than activities.

-  10:06  

Exactly. And I'm okay with just an hour nap if the child is waking up happy, but if they're waking up fussy, it's a good indication that they weren't quite ready to wake up. And many children have wake ups just after 45 minutes of sleep. And the problem that parents run into when this happens, they assume that okay, the trouble goes up. So they're ready to be awake, and they're done with the nap. And they may go into the room and the child's crying, potentially at first, and then upon seeing the mom or dad, they get happy. And so the parent just assumes that the nap is complete. But if kids are given the opportunity to get back to sleep on their own after a premature wake up, which I consider 45 minutes or even an hour after waking up, if they're waking up unhappy, That, to me is considered a premature wake up, and they're more likely to make the transition into a longer nap time if given the opportunity and that one change can help Help perpetuate, help prevent the perpetuation of just a 45 minute nap cycle, which, you know, like I said, I think it's too short.

-  11:09  

I see. So actually parents need to do a better job to understand the science behind it and really read the cues from the children to see whether they raise their hand or not.

-  11:23  

Exactly, and the child, it's so great that you brought up the word cues because that's the primary thing that I'm always stressing to parents is to pay attention to the keys because the child is telling the parent what they want when they're hungry when they're sleepy. But it's difficult a lot of times for the parent to interpret or read those cues if they don't know what they're looking for, you know, because babies you know, some kids don't even really speak until two years of age or speak, understandably or you know, sentences. And so for the first two years of this child's life, a lot of it is just guesswork, you know. So if the parents know what cues to look for the child is communicating to them when they're hungry or when they're sleepy. So the parent knows what to look out for, they're more likely going to be able to read those cues and figure out if the child is pressing because they're hungry or fussing because they're sleeping.

-  12:24  

Right, right. Wow. Yes. So I know a lot young parents are really anxious about whether they read the cue correctly, or how to help the child. And I think other than the parents you talk about, like the mystery, the cue and just think our child's totally wake up. Some other parents possibly are on the other extreme. They are very anxious. They feel like well, babies need sleep more but they are not how I can make them sleep. Do those kind of behavior caused any problems for the child's sleep?

-  13:06  

Yeah, so poor kids are really good at picking up on parents anxieties, and when they the parents are anxious, it makes the kids anxious and it makes them difficult, makes it difficult for them to relax and gets asleep. So if parents are aware of what those cues are, so I typically tell parents, there's three arenas of the cues, the early cues, the middle cues and the late cues, and the early sleep cues over this child is staring off into space and looking a little drowsy and kind of out of it. That's a good time to start the sleep routine and get them into a place where they can sleep. The middle of the road cues can be where the child is rubbing their eyes or dawning some kids will pull on their ears or pull on their hair. You still have time the parent still has time at that point to get the train. Held into a good sleep setting. So they're, they're in an environment so they can sleep. And then the lake is where the child is like fidgety and fussy and wants to be picked up. And once we put down and doesn't quite know what they want, and that you're, you can still potentially put the child to sleep at that point, but you're veering on that later end of the spectrum where if you don't respond quick enough, the child could go into an alert period. So it's important to know what those cues are and pay attention to them and and notice when they happen and they may happen a lot sooner than the parent is expecting it to happen. You know, it may happen just 90 minutes from when the child woke up. It may happen three hours from when the child woke up. But if the parent isn't paying attention or looking out for those cues, they may just push through that cycle and then the child becomes overtired. So for the parents that are anxious If they try to put their anxieties aside and say, you know, I'm just gonna focus on what the child is telling me. I think a lot of the anxieties come from that uncertainty of not knowing, is the child sleepy, is it? Are they not sleepy? Are they hungry? Are they not hungry? You know what's going on the child's crying? So let me try feeding them. Okay, let me feed them and then they fall asleep. So maybe it was that they were hungry, or maybe it wasn't they're sleepy, it's always this sort of guessing game. And I think that's what gets parents in trouble. Because they aren't quite sure what they're doing and how they're how to do it. So if, if they follow the cues, and they can say, Oh, yeah, I saw him stare off into space, and then a yawn, so I know that he's sleepy. And forget the fact that it's just 30 minutes after they woke up or two and a half hours after they woke up if they see those cues, then try to get the child to sleep when they see the key.

-  15:51  

Huh, Wow, great. I think this is really helpful, because the three cues you you mentioned, I think a lot of parents can read Just look out for it. It's something easy to observe. And now it can make sense to them. So you mentioned the nighttime routine and wondering, I know some parents may struggling, maybe struggling about you know, put their children to bed at night. But some child possibly have a hard time to to fall asleep. And some parents may spend hours trying to do that. Is there any better routine nighttime routine for younger child that you know they can sleep better, easier and save the parents some time?

-  16:42  

Yeah, so the the most important thing that parents need to focus on is establishing a consistent routine and having the same bed time and same wakeup time. If the timings are different every day, that can affect how easily a child goes to sleep. It's possible that the child is no longer sleepy when the parent decides that it's bedtime. So, again, going back to the cues and making sure that the child is sleepy at that time and starting the bedtime routine, within a reasonable amount of time so that the child is capable of going to sleep will help eliminate the two hours you know that sometimes it can take for a parent to put a child to sleep, especially toddlers, they're notorious for delaying bedtime with multiple requests of drinking water or getting one more hug or one more kiss or going to the potty. So establishing a routine and consistent bedtime and following cues are super important, as well as establishing a really calming and soothing bedtime routine. So going in the room and turning down the lights hitting on a rock or reading a book singing a song. So all those things signal to the child that it's time to go to sleep. We'll also help delay the, the amount of time it can take a parent to put the child to sleep. So soothing routine, maintaining consistency, and following the cues are called important in minimizing the amount of time it can take for a parent to get a child asleep.

-  18:21  

Yes, that's great. Mm hmm. So you mentioned earlier about to let the child fall asleep on their own. And so I know some parents will want to check on the child. And is there a good timing for parents to do that? And when they do that is at the child sometime gets happy to see the parents but they're still sleepy, where it's a boundary or balance between parents checking on the child, put the child to sleep, versus having the child to to go better sleep by themselves.

-  19:02  

Yeah, so I think it's always good to check in on the child, because it lets them know that the parent is there, they love them, they care, they don't feel abandoned. But limit those check ins to a couple minutes. You know, if you stay in the room until the child is asleep and then sneak out, it can create a level of distrust and anxiety for the child and when they wake up overnight, and check their environment and that environment isn't the same as it was when they fell asleep. It again creates distrust and anxiety. So when you're putting a child to sleep, it's best after doing your routine, you put them in the crib or the bed and say good night. I love you. It's time to go to sleep. See you in the morning and you leave if they're fussing, it's fine to go in, offer comfort of their head, their chest. Let them know that you're there that you love them, but it's time to go to sleep and leave so easy. If it means going back in the room 20 times to check on them, I'm okay with that as long as the child is falling asleep independently, so that the problem comes in when the parent stays in there until the child is asleep, and then sneaks out. That's what causes the can cause the multiple wake ups overnight where the child is waking to look for the parent.

-  20:25  

I see. Yes. So the parents want to set a boundary, but also make it clear to the child that when the child is still awake, to understand, I'm here for you, I love you to offer that sense of security but they just gonna leave and the child knows that and the child learns how to fall asleep on their own.

-  20:51  

Exactly sort of, I always use the analogy of riding a bike. You know, if you were to hold on to your child They're learning to ride a bike and never let go, they're never really going to learn. But you know that when you let go, they're probably going to cry, they're going to be upset, they're going to be scared, they might fall, they might hurt themselves. But unless you let go, they're never going to be given that opportunity to ride on their own. So it's sort of the same with sleeping is that you have to support them and hold the bike, you know, you can go in there and give them comfort, multiple times throughout the night as you're starting the process. But eventually, you have to let go and let them do the last little bit

-  21:34  

on their own. Wow, I really liked that analogy that makes a lot of sense. That reminded me how I learned bicycle when I was young. Yeah.

-  21:43  

It's just something that parents have to do. You want to be there as a parent all the way and support the child, you know, forever. Even once they're older and adults and married and have kids of their own. It's the parents, you know, feel like they have to be there. to support them, but at some point multiple times for multiple things throughout their life, they're going to have to let go. And as far as the boundary setting that you're talking about, I don't think it impacts the bonding that the parent has with the child. If anything, it helps create a more secure relationship. And for that, I use this bridge analogy. There's this almost 24 mile bridge over water here in New Orleans. And they have, you know, short rails that keeps the car from falling over obviously, but they're pretty short rails. So if the car does, you know, veer off to the right or left, it could fall over the rails, but multiple motorists drive on that bridge every day knowing that those railings are there. But assume or imagine what a bridge a 24 mile bridge would look like without railings at all. And how terrifying it would be to drive on that bridge. Knowing that there's nothing there to kind of support you and keep you contained and as a boundary. And so I tell parents that all the time like kids need that boundary, it doesn't have to be a huge tall jail like boundary, but they need small boundaries to know that they are contained. They feel secure and helps them feel more connected and

-  23:30  

have that sense of security with their parents when those boundaries are present. So

-  23:36  

and the same thing with sleeping that boundary of you have your space I have my space. And it is time to go to sleep is a good, secure boundary and if the family wants to have a family bed and have the child once or over two years of age, sleep in the bed with them and everyone sleeps great. That's totally fine, but it's when the parents can Can't sleep well or the child doesn't sleep well, and the parents are just doing it because they don't want to set those boundaries is when it becomes a problem. And also when families are sleeping together in the same room, and parent and children are expecting the parent to sleep with them, then the parent either has to go to bed at 7pm when the child goes to bed so the child can get their 12 hours of sleep overnight. Or what typically ends up happening is the child stays awake until the parents go to bed at nine or 10 or later. And so the child isn't getting as much sleep as they need to. And the parents aren't getting their time to do the things they need to do to run a house or have time with their spouse or have some time to themselves.

-  24:45  

Right. So I really like that because I think a lot of parents not only for sleep, but for parenting in general. They would give in if there are boundaries to make the child happy. But and the child feel more insecure. So it's always backfire.

-  25:07  

Yes, always backfires even in the moment when it can be difficult to say no, because you don't want to be the bad guy. The parent doesn't want to be the bad guy. It it does end up backfiring. And and like I said, there's some days you do give in and some days, of course, that's okay. But if as long as there is a consistent pattern, that's what's going to make the child feel more secure.

-  25:32  

Right? Not only the child feel more secure, the parents would have more personal time possibly. Yeah,

-  25:40  

a lot of families say you know, I don't need personal time and I want to spend all my time with my child. And that's okay too. But make sure that the child is getting what they need developmentally, which is you know, like I said they need about 12 hours of sleep overnight, so, unless it parent is willing to go to bed 7pm and wake up at 7pm

-  26:03  

it may not be the best practice,

-  26:05  

right so also you just mentioned the child needs like 12 hour of sleep per night.

-  26:13  

Most kids until about age six, when they stopped napping as as much they can, they can also decrease the amount of overnight sleep that they need down to 10 and a half hours, but prior to that they need about 12 hours.

-  26:32  

Wow. So that's overnight sleep and then plus the naps are taking Wow. Okay, so they do need a lot of sleep,

-  26:41  

a lot of sleep because they're developing and growing at such a rapid rate. And as I said before, during sleep is when all those neuronal connections occur so that's when you know the brain and the body is restoring itself and and developing To the child. So sleep is super, super crucial. And there's so much research that's being done recently that talks about the benefits of sleep on children and their developing brain.

-  27:13  

Hmm, great. Great. Yes. So please feel free to offer me any of those papers. I can link them to the show notes. If any audience want to read more about that, or there's any websites they can read. I can definitely put the information there. Okay. Yeah. So, one of my friend actually asked me once about this product called new sounds like some device to help children to sleep better. I'm not sure whether you heard about this product, would you think about it?

-  27:47  

I have mixed feelings about this new. So let me start by saying I love Dr. Harvey Karp. He's the developer of this news, and I used his five S's protocol of swaddling. Inside positioning shushing and swinging, as well as talking when my children were babies, and it saved us in that newborn phase when things are taxing to, to parent, you know, I personally had a benefit from it. And I, I love that he developed something that can help parents even more, especially those in the newborn phase because that is such a difficult time for so many families. However, I think parents end up using it for too long past the six month timeframe. And more importantly, the child becomes so dependent on it can become depending on it. And it becomes a hard habit to undo and even harder to transition the child out of it when they're too old or too heavy to continue with us. And I'm finding many of my clients that come to me are because they've used this new and the newborn period and now they're having a difficult time getting their child out of it and they're nearing the end of The use of the product and so I'm finding that it's great in the beginning stages, because it does help a lot of parents out and the most difficult time of parenting when a child first comes home, but then it's hard to undo that effect. And there is a training mode on this new or like a gradual elimination mode to get the child unused to the rocking and the swinging and, you know, all the features the shushing, but in my experience with my clients, they're, they're having a difficult time using training mode. So I would say it's, it's preferable to save that money because it is quite expensive and hire a sleep consultant, because they will teach you how to get the child sleeping appropriately based on their developmental age, from the newborn stage, such that those devices are not necessary. And you'll be setting the child up for good sleep forever, because you'll learn the tips and tricks and tools needed to get the child moving through their developmental stages and getting the right amount of sleep that they need. Mm hmm.

-  30:13  

Yeah, so sounds like whether parents choose to use products like this to help or not, it's still always very important for them to learn the strategies behind the knowledge behind it to really understand what to do, how to help and guide the child and how to set boundaries, how to, you know, do all this, these things you just mentioned themselves.

-  30:43  

Yeah, because it's something they can use for love. Yeah, the whole their whole parenting

-  30:50  

timeframe. You know, as the child develops and moves through developmental milestones. These tips will be beneficial and can be applied throughout the child's life. Rather than Just in a snapshot of time,

-  31:03  

yes, this is great. I like all this information you shared with us. And after talking to you I think personally I definitely buyings idea of hiring, you know, sleep consultant to help out since I can imagine it's such a struggle and challenge for a lot of families with, you know, young babies. And I know a lot of our audience for our podcast whore moms, young moms are really look I look forward to and waiting to hear more about this episode to learn more. So I want to know if you know, people listen to this episode, and they decide they want to know more about your practice or they want to talk to you. How can they find you?

-  31:55  

Yeah, so they can go onto our website. It's sleepless and nola.com and complete a free consultation form. And it's a free 15 minute consultation and I will personally speak with them to determine the specifics of their case and determine what package or plan would be best for them. As I said before, some parents depending on their situation may be do fine with just an hour phone consultation and others may need the three hour in home, either Skype, FaceTime or local consultation, where we discuss how to work to gradually eliminate the associations the child has with falling asleep so if they go to the website, www w equals the nola.com and fill out a consultation form. I will meet with them personally and then we'll decide which plan or package would be best for them. They can also follow me on Facebook at SQL Sinhala or on am also on Instagram and LinkedIn. I have a group on Facebook called the sleepless and Nola sleep Alliance, and it's a group of parents and they come on and discuss their sleep issues. And other parents can respond to their questions as well as I sometimes get on there and respond to their questions as well. So it's a great forum for parents to join and get their questions answered and have that sort of community of other parents going through similar things.

-  33:32  

Oh, that's great to know. Great, I will get all this links and information from you later and put them on the show notes. So yeah, other than people just talking to this and finding your website, they can also go to the show notes, and to click through those links. And to find out more about your website, your groups, your social media platforms to to get in touch with you. Sounds great. Great, thank you very much for coming to the show. I really like all the information you share, I think they really can benefit the parents a lot.

-  34:10  

Great. Thank you so much for the opportunity.

-  34:13  

This is my conversation with Dr. Vyas. For parents who are listening to this show. Do you find this tips and her suggestions helpful. If you want to find out more about her service, please go to her website at sleep less nola.com and I will put her website on my show notes. Also, you can find the whole show notes at our website at https://www.deepintosleep.co/episode/029. welcome any questions, comments, feedback, and if you want to listen to any other experts in this field, please feel free to let me know too. If you have children who are Older than four years old, who are between the age between four years old and 10 years old. And if you want to learn more how to coach that age group to sleep better, please revisit our previous episode Episode 18 and 19 with Dr. Schneeberg from Yale University, and she talked in details about how to help school aged children and teenagers to sleep better. You're welcome to subscribe our newsletter to get the most updated information about our show and other sleep tips. And our website. Again, it's deep into sleep.co Thank you very much. I will see you next week.


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