Ep061: ADHD: Disability or Super Ability? with Diann Wingert

 
deepintosleep.co
 

WHAT WILL WE LEARN

  • 00:31 The link between sleep and ADHD

  • 04:15 The reasons why Diann Wingert decided to coach entrepreneurs with ADHD

  • 05:53 Why women over 40 are considered the fastest-growing group of adults being identified with ADHD?

  • 06:36 Why there's a lesser chance for women to be diagnosed with ADHD?

  • 08:00 Myths of ADHD in women

  • 11:31 How do you know if a high ability woman has ADHD traits?

  • 12:48 What are the challenges women with ADHD are facing?

  • 16:49 What unidentified ADHD looks like to an adult women

  • 19:24 Creating a lifestyle that will work for you 

  • 22:08 You need to understand who you really are

  • 23:48 Taking the stigma out of neurodiversity

  • 24:47 Is ADHD a disorder or a superpower?

  • 27:43 Figure out something unique about yourself

  • 30:00 Being different is not a problem

  • 33:34 How sleep disorder affects the lives of people with ADHD  

  • 38:25 How sleep problems transform into a chronic sleep disorder? 

  • 40:18 Mindfulness and its importance

  • 42:16 Napping: Is it good or bad?

  • 45:49 Don't worry about the stigma: Educate and inform yourself about ADHD 


TODAY’S GUEST

Diann Wingert is a mindset and productivity coach for female entrepreneurs who are identified with the traits of ADHD, officially diagnosed or not. During her former 20-year career as a licensed psychotherapist, Diann saw many brilliant and ambitious women struggle with unidentified ADHD, including herself. Since her own mid-life diagnosis, she now mentors women who are “driven but distracted” to overcome procrastination, perfectionism, and people-pleasing so they can craft a life they love.

Why can't we instead look at our brains and our needs and our way of being in the world and think they’re PC and I'm a Mac. My brain works perfectly well, but it works differently. So I need to figure out how my brain works instead of trying to make my brain like other brains that are not ever going to work.

- Diann Wingert 

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Transcripts

Dr. Yishan Xu  0:00

 

Hello, welcome to another episode of deep into sleep podcast. I'm your host Yishan. So have you ever heard about this term attention deficit hyperactivity disorder? We used to call it ADD and now we mostly call it ADHD. So it describes a lot of children or adults who may have this difficulty paying attention, staying focused, cannot stay still, or being impulsive in their behaviors. Well, do you know actually, there's a strong link between sleep quality and ADHD symptoms. According to some research studies. Actually, children with ADHD, they're more likely to feel sleepy during the daytime. And they're more likely to have other types of sleep disorders as well, such as sleep-disordered breathing, or something like restless leg syndrome. Why this is important to know. Because there definitely is some study that finds out that if children with ADHD don't sleep well, their symptoms of ADHD may get worse. On the other hand, among some children, research finds when their sleep problems are treated successfully, their symptoms of ADHD actually get much better. It's very important to know that when adults are tired, or not sleeping enough, the way they show it looks very different than how children show it. As an adult, if I lose some sleep, I may feel really sluggish, sleepy, tired. But if a child loses sleep, this child may become hyperactive or impulsive. This child can even become emotionally aggressive, explosive. It all could be a result of a lack of sleep. Sometimes I see a lot of parents who are very desperate and hopeless after their children are diagnosed with ADHD. They are thinking wow, this is awful how my child is going to succeed in the future. If you are one of these parents, or if you are worried about your own symptoms of ADHD, you'd love today's guest. We have Diann Wingert with us today. She was not diagnosed with ADHD until her mid-age. She also parents children with ADHD diagnosis. She is a mindset and productivity coach for female entrepreneurs who identify with the traits of ADHD, no matter whether they are officially diagnosed or not. She's very good at mentoring women who are driven but distracted, she helps them to learn how to overcome their own procrastination, their own perfectionism, and how to stop being a people pleaser. So this woman can really craft a life. They love, they deserve and they can try. Hi, Diann, welcome to the show.

 

Diann Wingert  3:31

 

I have been so looking forward to this.

 

Dr. Yishan Xu  3:34

 

I'm so excited to have you because I know you've been doing some wonderful work to coach entrepreneurs with ADHD. Can you tell us a little bit about what you are working on and why you get interested in this topic specifically?

 

Diann Wingert  3:51

 

Well, as a matter of fact, I'm an entrepreneur myself. But prior to that, I was a licensed clinical social worker and a psychotherapist for more than 25 years, I knew that my husband and I were going to be relocating and decided rather than getting licensed all over again, in a new state, we actually might have even left the country. I decided to pivot into coaching and the reason why I chose to coach entrepreneurs with ADHD for two reasons. One, I have ADHD. And I wasn't even officially diagnosed until just five years ago, which is very late in life for the diagnosis. And we can talk more about that if you like. But the other reason is that I started reading on entrepreneurship and discovered that it said somewhere between 60 and 70% of entrepreneurs have ADHD traits, even if they haven't been diagnosed. So of course, I became really interested and fascinated by that. And as it turns out, it's very true. A lot of entrepreneurs have ADHD traits, even if they don't have the diagnosis and one of the reasons why I was really excited to come with you is that a significant majority of them have difficulty with sleeping. But they have other challenges too.

 

Dr. Yishan Xu  5:07

 

Yes, that's so interesting, actually. While you mentioned that I see myself as a very junior early-stage entrepreneur. I remember why I was training in my postdoc program at Kaiser Permanente. I talked to my supervisor once, I said, I think I may have ADHD,

 

Diann Wingert  5:25

 

Oh, my goodness.

 

Dr. Yishan Xu  5:26

 

And they said, No, you don't have ADHD? Because they are all clinical psychologists. Right? So am I but I feel like why I'm so interested in so many different things. I have this idea of jumping around all the time. And I have undiagnosed ADHD. So well, you mentioned that I was like, that's so interesting.

 

Diann Wingert  5:44

 

This is going to be a very, very interesting conversation for both of us. And the reason why is that I think you may or may not know this, but women over 40. And I think that's definitely older than you. But women over 40 are the fastest-growing group of adults being identified as ADHD. And the reason for that is that it usually happens when one or more of their children are diagnosed. And then the clinician starts to do family history. And oftentimes, the question will come up. Well, when did you first notice that your child had these traits or these struggles? And some of the parents would say, Well, actually, I didn't, I didn't notice anything. I didn't think he's just like me, or she's just like me. And then we didn't think anything was wrong until we started getting these calls from the school. Well, that's an interesting story in and of itself, because you're probably only getting calls from the school if your child is a little boy if your child is a little girl, especially a smart, curious, eager little girl like I bet you were not so long ago, and like I definitely was a little longer ago, the chance that we would ever be diagnosed with ADHD is actually pretty small. Because if you're highly intelligent, and you're an eager learner, you will develop a workaround. And you're right, one of the traits for a high ability woman who has ADHD is that she gets interested in lots and lots and lots of different things, she may shift her focus from one thing to the next, you know, we both know the shiny object syndrome statement, we have a lot more, we are a lot more excited to start things, but we may have trouble finishing them. And I would guess probably all serial entrepreneurs have ADHD, because when you think about it, all the things that we like most, which is to come up with lots of ideas, make something happen quickly, but then we get bored of it and we want to move on. If you're a serial entrepreneur, that's what you do. So I'm not saying you do or don't have ADHD, but your colleagues may not be right, because one of the myths about ADHD in women is that if you had our high ability, and you've done well in school, then you couldn't possibly have ADHD. And I think that's incorrect. As you know, from being a clinician, to qualify for a diagnosis, any diagnosis, two things have to be present. One is symptoms, and two is impairment. So you may have symptoms, but not quite enough impairment to meet the criteria for the diagnosis. It doesn't mean you don't have ADHD traits, you just may have really good coping strategies, really good workarounds, or your struggles may not quite meet the level that would qualify as impairment. Does that fit you? Do you think?

 

Dr. Yishan Xu  8:50

 

That's so interesting, that actually makes sense. I think I may have some symptoms. And actually, over the years, I'm trying to use different ways to help myself stay on task and continue working on that and not get bored and not just run away from a project halfway. I think that's what I noticed. Right? Once you start something, hang on there, keep on doing. I think part of the reason behind why I'm doing a podcast, or why I was hesitant, makes me hesitant to start a podcast in the first place was, what if I was so interested at the beginning and then I feel like I'm bored halfway. I just got to drop it. But that's also I think, whatever challenge we have in life, it can be turned into a transformation, a lesson, a way to really treat ourselves. So I made a promise to myself if I want to really use podcasts as a way to help myself practice How to continue doing things. Maybe I want to turn it into stress or at least make it less of a weakness.

 

Diann Wingert  10:11

 

I think that's fantastic. And I think that's actually one of the things that I teach my clients. Before we started recording a moment ago, I was telling you that I launched a podcast in May, I decided, even though it would be a wonderful opportunity to connect with other interesting women like yourself, I was nervous about having guests right away, because I thought that will put pressure on me that will create expectations. And I think it's better if I just do the first 25 episodes as a solo on my own. Because then I know after 25 episodes, I'm either gonna say, Okay, I'm getting sick of this, it's not it, the shiny is worn off, it's not really interesting anymore, I'm ready to move on to something else. Or I've done 25 episodes, I have proved to myself, I can do this, I can be consistent, I can learn the systems, I can make it more streamlined and easier. So it takes some of the friction out now. Do I still want to do it? And how can I make it more interesting? So I want to continue. And one of the ways I decided that would make it more interesting is to invite guests. Now that I know, I'll follow through. But you're right if you notice that your interest changes, often that you mean that two of the classic signs really for a high ability woman who has ADHD traits, is that our excitement is high in the beginning. But as time goes by, we start to fall out of love with whatever the project is. And then we find something new. And we're like, so I say we're a serial monogamist. When it comes to our interest, we fall deeply in love with whatever project or task, and then once we're kind of not really in love with it anymore. Now we want to try something new. And a lot of people will say, why don't you just stick with something, you were good at it, you enjoyed it. But what they don't realize is that we have so many interests, and so many abilities to be good at many things, that what's actually normal and natural for us is to go from one thing to the next to the next. Now if you never pursue anything to succeed, that's a little bit different. But I'm going to guess that you probably are successful at whatever you pursue. But when it doesn't interest you anymore, you let yourself move on. That's different.

 

Dr. Yishan Xu  12:41

 

Totally right. One thing you mentioned earlier, it's the challenge we are facing or you know, energetic women, or entrepreneurs with ADHD traits. I think sleep is possibly just one of the challenges. I remember myself, for example, I'm managing a group practice. And I'm also having two podcasts, one in Chinese one in English it all just started in less than a year. And I do other things too. So some of my colleagues or friends, they look at me and they're like, wow, you're managing all these things. You actually don't sleep.

 

Diann Wingert  13:19

 

Well, because it would be extreme for them. I think it's one of the things. Let me tell you a little story this was years before I was identified as ADHD. And it's very common for women to be diagnosed later in life. Because you think about it. And you know this because you work with people of all ages, just like I have in the classroom works well based on conformity. And of course, everything's different now because of the quarantine and virtual learning. But in the typical classroom, you've got 25 to 30 kids, the expectation is they're going to sit still, be quiet, listen, engage with the teacher, and pay attention to whatever the discussion is. Keep their hands to themselves, you know, start the test when it's given. And when they say turn over your papers, there's a lot of compliance, a lot of norms, and a lot of routines. Well, for the ADHD little boy, he's going to be poking the kid next to him, he's going to be digging around in his backpack looking for his pen when everyone else has started the test. He's going to be blurting out answers without putting his hand up. So his behavior will be seen as disruptive and the teachers will start calling the parents and say we think your child has ADHD. We think you should take him to the pediatrician and get him some medication and so his parents don't always want to do that. But he's going to be identified relatively early. My oldest son was the first one in our family to be identified and he was eight years old. A little girl, girls are much better at conforming to social expectations, we are much better at following rules. These are generalizations, but most girls are internalizing their symptoms, their hyperactivity is mental and verbal, not so much physical. So she may be thinking she may be having all kinds of fascinating thoughts in her head, she may be creating her imagination and creating all kinds of fantasies, but she may be quiet as a mouse. So the teacher just thinks, maybe she's not very bright. Or maybe she's just distractible, they'll say, Oh, she's not the best student, she just daydreams a lot. Or maybe she's doodling on her paper because that actually helps her concentrate. But the key thing is that she's not disrupting the class. So the teacher will perhaps, inaccurately make the assessment that she's either not very intelligent, or not very motivated. But if she's not bothering anyone else, they won't think there's a problem. And I find that very sad and frustrating because many of these girls are highly intelligent, but because they can conform to the expectations of the classroom, they get overlooked as having any kind of a problem learning. Years later, they have a child who gets diagnosed, and then they think, well, could I, could this be me too? The really sad thing is that many psychotherapists and even psychiatrists are not up to date on what ADHD looks like in an adult woman. So the vast majority of women where they're just gonna think I'm not that smart, or I'm not that motivated, or they're just going to have a negative self-evaluation. And eventually, they will be depressed, or they will be anxious, or many of them develop dysfunctional behaviors with substances, eating, shopping, you name it, so he or she is quietly underachieving. Developing all these other behavioral problems, and never knowing the cause. Even if she goes to a therapist. Almost every single woman I ever diagnosed with ADHD, had already seen at least one other therapist and been diagnosed with anxiety, depression, an eating disorder, a substance disorder, or many things. And I'm not saying they didn't have those things. But when you do a really thorough history and really know what to look for, oftentimes unidentified ADHD was the cause. And it was there all along, but no one was looking for it. And no one recognized it either, including the therapist, which I think there's such a need for clinicians to know if a woman comes into your office, and she has an existing diagnosis of anxiety, depression and eating disorders, substance disorder, consider ADHD, and inform yourself about what to look for. And even a high-ability woman like yourself, or your colleagues that, you don't have ADHD, you might, you actually might, but you wouldn't qualify for a diagnosis. But you have the traits and you've learned how to manage them. That's the difference.

 

Dr. Yishan Xu 18:48

 

Yes, I really like it. To think about this not as a label or stigma that Oh, you have ADHD, oh, it's bad. It means you have a disorder, you're not normal. It's more like thinking about what that means to our life. We may have traits that may show up in our lives in a way. But we may not be impaired by it. Some of us may not. 

 

Diann Wingert  19:15

 

No. And I think also you have done something that I think all successful women with ADHD do. You created a lifestyle that works really well for your traits, like think about it. As an entrepreneur, you get to create a business that works for you. You get to create a lot of energy, a lot of movement, you can change the direction of your practice whenever you want. not one but two podcasts because you speak two different languages. I mean, you are giving your brain a lot of stimulation, which is what our brain needs. Now I bet if you were working, let's say in a corporate job, even in the same profession, If you were working in a mental health clinic, like the ones we both trained in, and you saw the same clients, the same schedule, the same colleagues, the same hours, the same paperwork, and you knew your whole career was going to look like that. You may become symptomatic, and even diagnosable. Because that lifestyle would not work for you, would not work for your brain, wouldn't be stimulating enough, it wouldn't, wouldn't give you enough variety, wouldn't give you enough challenge, wouldn't give you enough creativity. These are some of the things that brains like let's say ours, let's just assume that brains like ours need. Now back to sleep there's a lot of sleep problems for ADHD brain loss. And I bet you see a lot of them in your practice, just like I do.

 

Dr. Yishan Xu 20:51

 

Yes, that's so interesting. I noticed you mentioned how successful women with ADHD traits treat life to create a lifestyle. I just thought I would just think about that. So similar to treatment in sleep, actually, if we understand what our brain needs, what our body needs, and try to see what we have in control of, what we have the power of, and creating or cultivating some kind of optimal sleep window or optimal lifestyle work schedule for ourselves that is best for us. 

 

Diann Wingert  21:34

 

Yes. Because you know, as well as I do that, a lot of people say, just tell me what to do. Just tell me what to do. And I'll do it. And I say, No, you won't, you think you want me to tell you what to do. Because that sounds like it will make the struggle go away. Feel just get the plan, you'll follow the plan. And this problem will be a thing of the past. First of all, if you genuinely have ADHD, you might follow it for two weeks, and then you're going to start resisting it. Because you’ll be bored, or there'll be some part of it, that doesn't work for your lifestyle, I prefer to say, we need to understand who we really are and how we really are, we need to understand how much exercise we need, what kind of diet we work best with how much sleep we need, and not only how many hours but when to go to sleep and when to get up. We need to know you know all the sleep hygiene information about how much light or darkness how much sound or no sound like really, really, really paying attention because even not everybody who has ADHD has exactly the same needs. Some people need six hours of sleep, some people need nine. I can't say do this, and it'll work for you. You have to get curious about your brain and think if I was able to interview my brain and say brain, I want us to get along better. I want you to be happier. So what do you need that I'm not giving you? I think it's really fascinating when you're not seeing not being able to sleep as a problem. And because you practice cognitive behavioral therapy as I practice cognitive-behavioral coaching, but it's very similar to CBT. That it's not so much the fact that people may have a problem. That's the problem. It's what they make it mean. So a perfect example like, Okay, I have ADHD, there are people who would say, I can't believe that you actually admit that in public. I say, Not only that, when I went to the gym this morning, I was wearing a T-shirt that says ADHD and killing it. Total strangers are looking at me and looking at this shirt thinking Whoa. And this is part of my commitment to taking this stigma out of neurodiversity. I mean, first of all, there's nothing wrong with my brain because it works differently than yours. 10% of people have neurodiverse brains, but the world was made by and for the other 90%. So if we think that we need to function as they do, and if we try to conform to their norms, we will struggle, we will be symptomatic, and we will think something's wrong with us. Why can't we instead look at our brains and our needs and our way of being in the world and think their PC and I'm a Mac my brain works perfectly well, but it works differently. So I need to figure out how my brain works instead of trying to make my brain like other brains that are not going to work. And there's a lot of things about the ADHD brain that is fascinating. And I would even say like super abilities. I mean, there are things that people with ADHD can do, that neurotypical people under the best of circumstances can't do. And I think that's one of the reasons why there's so much confusion about ADHD because you hear some people say, it's a disability, it's a serious disorder, you should lower your expectations. You're never going to do anything important, you probably won't finish college, so on and so forth. And then other people will say, I love ADHD. It's my freakin superpower. Wait, what is it? Is it a superpower? Or is it a disorder? Well, part of it is how you look at it. Part of it is how prominent your symptoms are. But are you really living a life that works for the brain you got? Or are you trying to live a life according to the brain you think you should have? And what changes could you make to suit your brain better? I mean, you suit your brain better by being an entrepreneur with multiple projects going on, instead of trying to do one thing, repeatedly, that would not work for you. But other people don't understand that. I bet you get a lot of questions. I've had many people say, I just don't know how you do so much. How did you make that happen so quickly? Or you've never done that before? How did you know what to do? or Why are you doing so many things at the same time? Because that's normal for me, it would not be normal for me to do one thing at a time over and over and over in fact that that sounds awful. I would be miserable. I couldn't. I couldn't. You probably couldn't either. Yeah, you couldn't hear

 

Dr. Yishan Xu  26:37

 

Yes, I figured out early on. I just cannot work in a hospital nine to five, five days a week. And it's just too boring. I love the job. I love the work itself. I love seeing patients, I love to do therapy. But I need enough stimulation. I remember when I did some training in the College Counseling Center. I feel like every day it's so similar because they have a set schedule for morning meetings and clients, clients. And then the last two hours you're gonna write notes every day is like that. I pray for the hospital at least have a little bit change round to different units, you do slightly different things. I slowly shift what I think my brain needs what makes me happy. And I think that's very important for our audience who listen to this and think about, whoever is listening to what you are experiencing in life. What do you know your brain needs? Are you like wealth, 90%? Or are your brains wired differently?  You need to figure out something unique for yourself?

 

Diann Wingert  27:53

 

Well, I'm impressed with the fact that you saw that you were different. And you paid attention to how you feel in different environments. And then you made the courageous choice to craft a set of situations that works for you. Maybe it's generational because we are from different generations. But I think the majority of people think well, I should be able to do this. And if I can't do this, there's something wrong with me. So I just need to try harder. No wonder so many people become depressed. I'm impressed with the fact that you notice that you needed different things, you needed more stimulation, you needed more variety, you needed a faster pace, your brain had different needs. And you felt better when you were in situations where you got more stimulation, and you gave yourself permission to do that, instead of thinking that there was something wrong that you didn't like, the predictable consistent routine.

 

Dr. Yishan Xu  29:02

 

Right. Just like you said, how our brain is cleansing how we make sense of a situation I never labeled myself as weird or abnormal. I just think I'm a little bit different, maybe what works for other people doesn't really work for me. Then what can I do? I think with the education with the license I have, I always have multiple options. That I'm willing to take a little bit of risk, right to give myself one year to try to build my own practice. If that does not work, I always have other options open. So that's what's behind me but before talking to you, I think I just really follow my instinct and never really connect the dots and think about what may be behind that, or maybe  my brain needs that and never leaves thinking deep, deeper about it. 

 

Diann Wingert  29:56

 

But this is what's so fascinating to me. I believe that a young child becomes aware when they're different. For whatever the reason, let's say you're the only Chinese kid in your class and everybody else is this Latino or black or white, you're going to notice that right away, or let's say you are taller, or shorter, skinnier or fatter. Maybe you're the only kid with the braces or glasses, maybe you're the only kid with freckles, maybe you're the only kid whose parents are divorced, maybe you're the only kid that is bilingual, whatever, or you have ADHD, or you're autistic, or you have red hair, whatever it is, kids notice when they're different. And most people think that's a problem. Now, what I'm so impressed by, and frankly, it's very exciting, and gratifying to me, is that you noticed you were different. But you didn't make it mean bad. Wrong, less than, defective, broken. And so many people do, so many people do. And I think it's normal for humans to want to fit in. I mean, we have all these mirror neurons in our brain for a reason. We are social creatures, we want to be liked, we want to be accepted, we want to fit in, that is normal. But when you're different, and you might have to work harder to fit in. Or you might have to create an environment of your own, and then find others like you to fit with. But most children would not automatically think, well, I'm different. So I must need different things. Let me go figure out what those things are. I imagine you also must have had good parents.

 

Dr. Yishan Xu  31:49

 

Yes, I think my parents definitely are amazing. Very nurturing and never labeled me as wrong, I guess. Also, they have limited knowledge about psychology, right? It's Chinese. Everyone just grew up in tough environments back then. So you just know, whatever you are, once you follow the rules, everything is fine. They just expect you to perform well in school, follow the rules. If you're a little bit jumpy, too many thoughts. They don't care. They don't. You got good grades, you can do whatever you want.

 

Diann Wingert  32:29

 

That's a really good point. I was telling you earlier that the neighborhood that I lived in, in Los Angeles is about 75%, Taiwanese and mainland Chinese people. So I would have guessed otherwise. I would have guessed that you needed to conform more. But what you're saying is, as long as your outcome is good, that's what matters how you got there. We don't care. You're fine with us, you get A super?

 

Dr. Yishan Xu 32:55

 

Yes, I guess my parents are possibly a little bit unique. But I'm definitely quite lucky. Another lucky thing regarding the sleep topic you mentioned earlier. Now I remember when I was younger, it was a little bit hard for my brain to shut down at night, I made up stories, every time I tried to go to sleep, that's a way to soothe myself. I tell myself, I'm just gonna create a story. Normally halfway the story goes, I'm just gonna fall asleep. As I get older and older. Fortunately, I somehow just learn how to soothe myself. And sleep has not been a problem for me. But I know you mentioned a lot of entrepreneurs or a woman or human being I think in general with ADHD, either this diagnosis or ADHD traits. I know from literature from research, also, it's a very common sleep problem that is very common among this population.

 

Diann Wingert  33:54

 

Extremely so and as a matter of fact, I you know, some of my clients when I was a psychotherapist for so many years, that just means that you know, you never talked about your personal life, you know, they didn't really know that much about me, it was more you know, the classic, it's all about the patient and they don't need to know anything about your personal life. Now, as a coach, I reveal a lot more about myself. Clearly, all of my clients know that I have ADHD and that I was diagnosed late in life, most of them will say so what about sleep? You know what, how do you get to sleep? Sometimes they get mad about this, but ever since I was a kid, I literally wake up in the morning, usually pretty early. The moment I open my eyes, my brain is already going and I could immediately start a conversation if somebody was there in fact that I've had to learn with my husband. If I'm awake two hours before he is and I will have to wait for him to come to me because I otherwise wouldn't early on in the marriage like I would wake up and he would say. They'll be asleep and shake him and say, guess what I just thought of, like, leave me alone. So I'm like, okay, but there's nobody else here. And I'm really excited, I want to share this with you. But I've learned I can't do that anymore. And I have friends in different time zones. So if I just have to talk to somebody at five in the morning, I have to call one of them. So I wake up early, my brain is fully charged. And as the day goes by, it's like a battery fully charged in the morning, and then it gets more and more and more drained. And by nine o'clock at night, I'm pretty useless. And by 10 o'clock, I could just boom, ever since I was a kid, I was that way. In fact, even as a teenager, I had a birthday sleepover with a bunch of my girlfriends and at 10 o'clock, I said, I'm going to sleep and they're like, it's a party for crying out loud. I said I'll stay up and have fun, but I go to bed. And if I stay up too late, like one time, we had our flight delayed several times. So I ended up having to fly really late and arrive late and go to the rental car place. I literally was trying to communicate with the guy at the rental car place, I couldn't finish my sentence, I looked at my brain just like it was shorted out. I just couldn't think anymore. And he's like, Are you okay, I said, I really, I'm really tired. But that's me. Most people with ADHD have a hard time waking up in the morning, have a hard time going to sleep at night. And many of them wake up intermittently during the night. So like primary insomnia, secondary insomnia, one of my clients, one of our coaching tasks was to eliminate the snooze button. Because she literally had multiple, multiple, multiple alarms set for three, she gave herself three hours to wake up in the morning. And I said, no, you're that's not I mean, that's your plan. And it's not a plan if you need to say I'm not going to try to get up at seven or eight or nine, if you're going to get up at 10, then get up at 10. But getting up every 10 minutes for three hours, you might as well just acknowledge that you're not actually going to get up until the end of those three hours, because otherwise, you're not getting any benefit from falling asleep and waking up and falling asleep and making up. But like you had mentioned earlier, a lot of people with busy brains have a really hard time letting go of the waking day, their brain is still it's like a car, it's still running. And so lots of times they need to have rituals. I'm really big on rituals and habits and all that because otherwise, we're relying on willpower. And that's just not reliable. So I like waking up rituals, going to sleep rituals, and, and also letting go of the thought that there's something wrong with you that you can't sleep, which is oftentimes half the battle, right? And you find that the thoughts that people have about not being able to sleep are actually a bigger problem than not being able to sleep. It's what they think about it.

 

Dr. Yishan Xu 38:15

 

Yes, exactly. And especially, we often say you know, your sleep normally is fine. Occasionally, we all have bad nights. But what makes a sleep problem become or turn into a chronic sleep problem is when we start worrying about falling asleep or staying asleep itself. It's just like we don't trust our bodies. We think we are broken and start getting in the way of sleep.

 

Diann Wingert  38:43

 

Yes, then you develop anxiety about sleep. And I think that's why the CBTI is so fascinating because helping people choose different thoughts about their relationship with sleep, with falling asleep, with staying asleep, with waking up all of that. That can be extremely stressful and creating all that stress in your mind. You are creating stress chemicals in your body and brain so it just becomes a vicious cycle.

 

Dr. Yishan Xu 39:20

 

Yes, it's a ritual you talk about I totally agree. I think as sleep specialists to what we often ask people to do, I think possibly can benefit people with ADHD trees are also this wine downtime right before by the time. But I think if our brain is busier than other people we may need longer or more structured wine downtime, and just give our body our brain more time to really relax and to be ready for sleep and the morning routine. The morning routine is so important. We often think of sleep as a nighttime thing though, sleep starts from the time you open your eyes, you build-up for the whole day. What you do during the daytime, including the morning, impacts how you can sleep at night. So it's all related. So morning routine, definitely important too.

 

Diann Wingert  40:13

 

Well. And I also know from being on your website that you teach and practice mindfulness. I've been a Buddhist for the last 15 years and also practicing mindfulness meditation for that same amount of time. And I find that you know, and of course, I offer it on a secular basis to clients. They don't have to change their religion, obviously. But I do think that a lot of people with ADHD brains say, Oh, God, I could never, I could never meditate. And it's like, have you tried it? There's like, Oh, no, no, no, no, that's not for me. Like, why would? Why would I ever try to sit still and make my mind go blank? Like, that's not what meditation is. And that's not it certainly isn't what mindfulness is. But you know, to me, like any kind of whether it's trouble falling asleep, trouble staying asleep, or just having an active mind when you need it to be still or less active, to be able to just look at what's going on in a mindful way is so much more helpful to just build the say, I wonder why my brain gets more active when I'm physically tired. It's really interesting. And is there a purpose or function that that serves? What might that be? And if I wasn't thinking, this is a problem that needs to be solved? How could my relationship with this trait be changed? Like, what if, like, I was not planning on getting up at four something this morning. I didn't need to get up that early. I didn't want to get up that early. I wanted to be very energetic for this interview. But that's what time I woke up. So what are you going to do? Just lie there and toss and turn? Are you going to fret? Are you going to be upset, you're going to be angry? I just got up and went to the gym. At least make something good out of it. What do you think about naps? Because I know there's a lot of difference of opinion about naps? I am a big fan of naps I always have been. But there are people who say absolutely no. And other people say if you're tired, have a nap. Just don't let it go on too long. What's your position on it?

 

Dr. Yishan Xu  42:34

 

Right. I listen to the second one you mentioned because in my culture I think we have to respect different people's cultural background and their habits and what their body needs. I think it's really there's no one answer for all. Like, I grew up in Chinese culture. And it's our habit to take a nap. Like my dad is a doctor himself. All the doctors in the hospital have noon, lunch break, no patients scheduled and they all are able to take a nap in their office in the patient's bed. Yeah, they have their own sheets and lay there for half an hour or one hour nap and then cleaned up for the patient. So I think it's really what culture allows, if you always do that, it can be a power nap, for sure. And also for people who have accumulated a lot of sleep that if they've been losing sleep a lot, they are like depriving themselves, they are not allowing themselves to get enough sleep a little bit nap, during the day, may be helpful. There is a lot of research showing just 20 minutes of nap right can really improve our cognitive functioning or attention in a certain way. I don't think there is anything wrong with taking a nap. So I would never tell people, you absolutely cannot take a nap and anything like that. I just tell them the science behind it. Like if you take a nap too long, like over 30 or 40 minutes, you may go into a deep sleep. And what it will do to you, is when you wake up depends on how long you're not going to be. If it lasts one hour or longer. You may wake up in the middle of deep sleep. And you may even feel more groggy, right, you may feel more tired. So it's their option, but I can give suggestions based on science.

 

Diann Wingert  44:24

 

The more people start to struggle with something and the more they start to think of themselves as having a serious problem. I'm sure you would agree, the more they start to get into things that are not science-based. That is even people that take advantage of people that can't sleep because they can be quite desperate. I've worked with professional women who believe they're not getting enough sleep, and they are really desperate to change that and one of them even went to a psychic. And I thought well did that help? She says I'm just desperate and I don't want to take medication? So I have to try something, she went to all of these different healers, because people told her, go have your palm read go. It's like, there's got to be a reason. I'm like, well, there's a reason. But I just, I don't know if that's going to help if it helps more power to you. But I prefer science myself.

 

Dr. Yishan Xu  45:21

 

Yes, this is wonderful. So near the end of our show, what can be some last wisdom you want to tell all the audience who are listening. If some of them know someone or themselves worried about ADHD, or their mind just being so busy in their life? Maybe last wisdom, you want to say?

 

 

Diann Wingert  45:48

 

Absolutely. I think that if you identify with the traits of ADHD, or if other people have said to you, you're so add or, you know, you have other friends that you know, are and you think this could be me. I really want to encourage you to educate and inform yourself. Don't be afraid that, oh, I don't really want to know, because what if it is, there are a tremendous number of very successful people with ADHD in the entertainment world, entrepreneurs, health care. I mean, you name it there, if you even just google ADHD, successful people, you would be surprised by some of the people on that list. So it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you. And it also doesn't mean that if you have ADHD that you automatically have to get diagnosed, or that you need to take medication, a lot of successful people with ADHD traits. Once they know oh, this is the kind of brain I have. Then they get to know all of the things that they can do to help their brain function at its best, including what kind of activities are best for someone like this, what career paths are best for someone like this? And how you can do what I help my clients with is what I call creating an ADHD friendly business and life. So I think Don't worry about the stigma. Find out there's a wonderful book that a lot of adults have read and realized after they read it Oh, this I think this is me. And it's written by a Harvard educated psychiatrist, who is a specialist in ADHD and has ADHD himself. You might want to link to it in the show notes. But the book is called Delivered from Distraction. And the author is Ned Halliwell. He also has a podcast called Distraction. And if they would like to get some more tips from me on how to be a successful female entrepreneur who happens to have ADHD, we can have you link to my website as well. And I have a freebie they can get called The Six Steps to ADHD Mastery, and they can get on my list and get additional tips and stuff. I also have a podcast called The Driven Woman. And I didn't put ADHD in the title because I think for high ability women, who may happen to have ADHD traits, they're really much more interested in achieving their goals and being successful. So that's what the show is geared towards.

 

Dr. Yishan Xu  48:28

 

Great. Thank you so much, Diann, this is wonderful. I really like how you encourage people to think about, we always have hope, and how we think about situations, how we interpret it, it's so important. So don't just rush to put stigma on top of ourselves. So I will link all the show notes, all your website information, your podcast, and your recommendation of that book, to the show notes deepintosleep.co. Thank you.

 

Diann Wingert  49:00

 

Thank you.

 

Dr. Yishan Xu  49:01

 

I will say this conversation is very interesting and shocking for me. Because even though I had this question about whether I had some ADHD traits since all my colleagues who are clinical psychologists around me did not think I had any problem with that. So I never really even think in that direction anymore. In my point of view, as an adult, it's really not the point of getting a diagnosis or not. It's about how I can understand myself better and what I can do, to carve out a lifestyle that really matches who I am. If you want to know more about Diann's work, you can go to her website at diannwingertcoaching.com or you can listen to her podcast The Driven Woman. She also provides a freebie The 6 Steps to ADHD Mastery. I will put all the links to our show note at deepintosleep.co. So this would be our episode 61 It's already over 60 episodes. I'm really excited about this podcast and thank you all for your support along the way. If you feel resonated after listening to this episode, please feel free to leave us comment reviews and let us know how you think, how you feel and how the story in this episode stays with you and inspires you. I would always love to hear from you. Thank you so much for coming to our podcast Deep Into Sleep. I'm your host Yishan and I will see you next week.

 

50:47

 

Sleep is an individual thing. We all sleep differently, and there is so much we can do to improve sleep quality. Keep hope and carry on. This podcast is for general informational purposes only and does not include the practice of medicine or other health professional services. The usage of the information we share is that the listeners own risk. And our content does not intend to be a substitute for any medical and professional services, diagnosis, and treatment. please seek professional health services as needed.


Dr. Yishan XuADHD, ADD, Disorder, Attention disorder, Impulsive behaviors, Impulsiveness, mental health disorderComment