Ep034: Switch to an Early Bird from a Night Owl, How?--with Dr. Burton
Dr. Sarah Burton
with Dr. Yishan Xu
TODAY’S GUEST
Dr. Sarah Burton is a licensed clinical psychologist with extensive therapy and assessment experience, who specializes in working with children, adolescents and their families. At Mind Body Garden Psychology Inc., Dr. Burton conducts evaluations when there are concerns of ADHD, Autism Spectrum Disorders, Mood Disorders, Learning Difficulties, Intellectual Delays, Behavioral Concerns, and more. Such assessments can help parents and children to understand their unique strengths and difficulties. If any specific concerns are identified, Dr. Burton aids parents in understanding their child’s skills and supports parents in how to best help their child based on their specific psychological profile.
WHAT WILL WE LEARN
Stop hitting the snooze button, it won’t help you sleep more, definitely not better!
Have an enjoyable morning routine, etc. morning coffee, news reading , morning exercise.
Turn on all the lights in the morning after getting up. Morning light helps.
One hour wind down before bed time.
Our goal of shifting our sleep schedule like this is to take good care of ourselves while sleeping well. Watch out the stress in this process and adjust it.
Figure out what our body needs while shifting our sleep schedule: How much sleep do you need? What your life and work requires from you? Then work backwards from there.
RESOURCES
You can find more about Dr. Burton at her web page here:
https://www.mindbodygarden.com/dr-burton
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Transcript
0:00
If I sleep late and get up late, but I really want to get up early in the morning to do something. Is that even possible? Can a night owl be shifted to an early bird? The answer is yes. If you use the right method. Hi, welcome to deep into sleep. I'm your host Asian. So today I have a nice conversation with my colleague, Dr. Sarah Burton, talking about her own experience of switching from a night owl to an early morning person. How did she do it? What are some helpful strategies that we can learn from her? Let's ask her together. Hi, Sarah, welcome to the show. Thank you. I was really amazed how you become an early morning person even though you told You You're kind of like a night owl before, or at least you're not that early morning before. How did that happen? I find that's really hard for myself to do.
1:09
Honestly, it was kind of tricky. I had no choice really since, like coming into grad school, like having so many classes and things early in the morning. I think when I was in college, it was definitely the late night studying sleep late, take like classes. definitely got into kind of a pattern that's hard to sustain, right, get a job and whatnot. So coming into grad school, I had that with them. I just needed to make a change, and so trying to figure out how to do that best. So for me, part of the things that were really important or kind of setting up a schedule and sticking to it. So the most probably important parts to schedule there would be like just even what time you're going to sleep and wait Up
2:02
figuring out you know how much sleep do I actually need so that you feel rested and then kind of sticking to that piece of it. Okay,
2:11
so just for the audience knowledge so how big of shift did you do I think we possibly all we are all there either for school or for work right we step stay up late we have loved work to do and especially to stress what we're going to have to present the next morning. So it's very easy for us to prioritize, prioritize work study oversleep. And then now, what's your like before an A now? What's the difference?
2:45
Yeah, so I was actually pretty much a night owl. Definition of that. The earliest bedtime I'd ever have would be midnight. Oh,
2:55
okay. Yes, I mean, I two or later or like preferably later Talking to a younger version of me. And then literally sleeping as late as I could. Oh, so leaving for very rushed mornings. Okay anything in later than late like noon one Saturdays and Sundays.
Yeah, sounds like me. Many of us. I want to say sounds like a lot of people I wasn't alone,
3:23
right everyone I knew was kind of
3:24
on that same kind of schedule. Yeah. And no one was really happy about it.
3:29
Right It feels like when you get up around noon the whole day's gone hmm even though we still enjoy the sleep, but they're always this guild and also struggle on Monday morning.
3:43
That struggle is real.
3:45
Yes, you're so used to of course, staying up sleeping, sleeping later on the weekends and then Monday rolls around and it's Yeah, panic mode in the morning of oh my gosh, how late Can I sleep? right you know, be out the door on time. So definitely, definitely a struggle. So that's actually one of the first things that I started doing. Like in the my gradual shift is I actually just started waking up a little bit earlier. Oh, um, seems maybe counterintuitive, since you want more sleep.
4:16
Right? The point you keep your go to bed time the same at the beginning, but it just cut it on the other end.
4:25
Right? So there's two reasons for this. So if I'm waking up a little bit earlier, at the end of the day, I get fatigued a little bit earlier, right? So my bedtime because I was waking up a little bit earlier, the bedtime would be a little bit earlier too. And when I first started doing this in the morning, I basically was waking up maybe 15 minutes earlier at a time, okay, not too much, right? Just enough for you like okay, I have 15 extra minutes in the morning. And so I've actually built some structure into the morning have kind of like timelines for like, I have to be in the shower at this point breakfast here. But I build in some kind of like wiggle room. And that's just time I could sit down. I could read the news I could. Whenever turn on TV, I could do whatever I want for a few minutes in the morning. And not only does it make mornings feel less stressful, it makes waking up in the mornings feel less terrible. Okay, because that pressure,
5:26
right, right, like we all you know, rush in the morning. For me for myself, I always want a relaxing moment that I was imagining, I'm gonna, you know, read the news, drink my coffee, but it's hard. It's always hard for me to have the time to do that.
5:44
Right, the idea versus reality, right. So that was that was my first goal of making mornings less dreaded, so that I didn't want to hit the snooze one more time. I definitely want to put it off that I could wake up knowing like I don't have to hit the ground running right away.
6:00
Hmm. And by the way is really poor sleep if we keep on hitting the snooze button.
6:05
Exactly. And I would definitely hit the snooze button over and over. That's me, but, but learning about that of how it's like you said, it's poor sleep. You're not actually it feels nice in the moment, but you're not getting anything from it but more fatigue, right?
6:23
Yeah, more struggles more fatigue, fatigue and guilt. Yep. Yeah. Will you pass the time you ideally want to get up?
6:33
Oh, the struggle is so real.
6:35
It is mornings are just tough. So that seemed to be kind of the first thing I needed to build into that. I really like it. I didn't want to dread it.
6:43
Yeah. So in order to not dread it 15 minutes a time and build a structure for yourself to make it more more fun. Look forward to it. And that way
6:55
I know sometimes when mornings are rushed, you're hoping to get out the door with two shoes on your feet. Kind of mornings I've been there. But that way you're getting all your boxes checked and you're not rushed, you're calm, less likely to forget things or, you know, have mismatching socks or whatever it is less likely to have that happen to you. So that that piece was really crucial once once I kind of got that started, it made that shift gradual, gradual is probably best, you don't want to do it very abruptly. But I started actually applying the same concept towards the nighttime too. So same thing of I kind of we all have a target bedtime, right? Right. Whether that actually happens or not. Oh, so I have a target like not go to bed but start calming down time where I actually get completely ready for bed, but I can still have me time with my husband read a book.
7:59
Okay. Something relaxing relaxing
8:03
vacation something calming before bed to make the oh my goodness I need to get eight hours I should be asleep two minutes ago stress right guilt again of oh man I didn't do this right so yeah
8:16
so not pursues how long hours really just focus on yourself What do you need how you feel calm down relax before bedtime
8:26
and the same kind of concept I use in the morning of building in that kind of extra wiggle time. I start getting ready probably a little bit before I need to, or at least the idea of it. So right now it sounds maybe silly and very different than my midnight bedtime. But when the clock hits eight o'clock I start thinking okay, it's time to transition I mentally not in Hey, it's nighttime mode, it's going to get ready for bed mode. Whether or not I do it at that moment is okay, what am I doing right now? But I know I've kind of shifted to like these are The next thing on my to do list is getting comfy clothes, etc. Right? Um, and then I want to be kind of laying down by nine you can see there's a lot of wiggle room in there, right when our like we're calming down, we're switching gears rain feels gradual and then it makes the nighttime kind of process easier because you're
9:20
in a home. So eight to nine, right? So when this wind wind down period or this coming down period, how do you decide what to do? I think a lot of people do have the question even they have this idea or maybe I do need slow down get my mind and my body ready. But often people are confused. What should I do with that one hour that's a long time. Well, I first off just start off by making sure my basic needs are met. Am I hungry? Do I need a snack to rest Whoa. So if I do then of course That's next on my list.
9:57
In my physically comfortable, like do I have too many Light fun, is it too bright and my still wearing my work clothes? Time to get physically more comfortable. Mm hmm. And if I'm still working on something like if I'm writing, I'll switch over to something that doesn't take as much focus or concentration. Whether that's just perusing the internet or watching a show that you know is not too heavy or deep. Something else just lighter. So cognitively giving yourself a break and a rest as well.
10:30
Oh, I like that. Think about really focus on ourselves what we need, basically our physical needs, our cognitive needs, and really just to look at ourselves, right, whatever, make ourselves relaxed and comfortable. Mm hmm.
10:47
Could be also, I typically build in a little bit of time where I can get ready for the next day. So like I bring my lunch to work. So I would make sure that's prepared, relieving morning stress. So it's slow, it's methodical. I have no time pressure that I make sure I'm totally prepared in that way as well. And set out if I need reminders for the next day to take care of my tomorrow self. Yeah, set those out, get everything I need kind of set up and ready to go. Ah,
11:17
that's interesting important actually, because myself I struggle with that a little bit is you know, I know some people find it easier to prepare for the next day like they will prepare what clothes to wear or food everything. So for me sometime and battling between that I feel like that can help with my morning stress, for sure, less rushed, but it adds on my neck stress. If I consider those planning as a stress, I may want, postpone it, I procrastinate, I end up not doing it and then go to bed. And so in the morning, of course, I start thinking about what to wear and where's my food and often forget about Certain things, right?
12:01
I hear that. So my, it might be about finding what's a good balance for you? Hmm. So, um, I've tried where I do set up, you know, set up my whole outfit and things like that, but I find that to be a little bit much. And when the morning I might not feel like wearing that, right, that's kind of a day of decision for me. But things like remembering what to bring in the morning or bringing lunch kind of those more technical, not very, like, not emotional, just time consuming and tedious things right. I like to kind of wrap some of those up. So it's not, I'm not trying to add all the stress onto the evening, just reducing the morning and feeling, you know, really prepared. And a lot of those kind of activities, whether it be setting up clothes, getting snacks together. They're not exactly thrilling so they kind of actually help you feel accomplished while helping you wind down at the same time, right? So that's part of the reason that I chose to add some of those into my nighttime schedule to help on both ends there.
13:07
Yeah, that's great to really think about, you're also taking good care of yourself the next day by planning out the food. Mm hmm. And so now you've just mentioned that you go to bed and nine, but sounds like years ago, you went to bed like past midnight, that's a huge shift over the years,
13:27
very big. So it actually was pretty gradual over time.
13:32
Starting with the wake up earlier, and then go to bed a little bit earlier. So I would kind of do it gradually. They're 1520 minutes, 20 minutes and just keep going there until it's, you know, till your sleep cycle kind of lends itself well to what your day schedule look like. So, of course different for every person. My day starts very early in the morning. So it actually I actually had to keep shifting it even further at night because I At this point, so different from my life before I wake up around five. So I have a lot built into my morning. Mm hmm. That makes my nighttime kind of easier. So like things like working out. I do that in the morning and works, I guess more effectively for my schedule at this point. So yeah, I've shifted quite a lot to accommodate what works best for me. But of course, it took a little bit to figure that out. Yeah. So gradual steps to kind of get there and then tailor it as needed as like changed. Hmm.
14:35
Okay. Yeah. And sounds like your current schedule, really align well with your work schedule, do whatever life needs you.
14:45
And how long did it take you to gradually you know, shift to the current schedule?
14:52
I've been on my current schedule. Hmm. About two or three years now. Okay, but it probably took A couple of years to kind of shift all the way
15:04
I feel like probably like most people I was pretty resistant
15:09
I just I was like self identified as a night owl and that just seemed to be that's that's how I function. How could I ever wake up in the morning? That's not me.
15:20
Yeah, because we know night our early bird is like 50% decided to buy jeans and then shifting that can be so hard. Mm hmm. night owls naturally feel so energetic creative at night. Yeah, that sounds like through some training, some self regulation you are able to slowly do something about it.
15:45
I think it does help having like something activating like workout in the morning. That seems to help me kind of jumpstart I'm not dragging my feet out of bed. No dreading going to work. It helps to kind of jumpstart that and kind of use more of my energy earlier in the day. Right? You're right I was I'd hit that second wind or peak of energy at like, 11pm. Right. Wow. So no longer the case. I feel like I've shifted it pretty well over time. But it's not a quick fix.
16:17
Yeah. So whoever want to try this method need to have enough patience.
16:22
Yeah, you have to be patient and accepting of yourself. Right? Because it's, the goal of this is ultimately to take care of yourself. Yeah, get sleep and reduce some stress that you're experiencing. So if you go at it, and you expect a lot of yourself right away, you're actually going to increase the stress.
16:41
Yeah. So we don't,
16:42
we don't want to do that. It's just seeing kind of exploring through different techniques of what's best for you. And how do you take care of yourself? One of those by getting enough sleep.
16:52
I like that eventually you're still prioritizing your sleep and you are shifting your schedule around it to protect Sleep to make sure you can still sleep well and have enough energy to be able to do your work at the time. You need to do your work.
17:09
Exactly, exactly. And it's self compassion in there goes a long way.
17:14
Yeah, that's important too. So you start your date first thing during the exercise,
17:20
huh? Yep, no, basically well, coffee and coffee in the morning. That also probably helps me work out. I'm not a good fit for everyone. But it's helpful for me and it's something I enjoy, right? So that's one thing that helps me get out of bed I've got I literally get up and I have 10 minutes to drink coffee. Tea and if I'm really feeling it, I have it built. Right so I get up knowing I don't have to, like I said earlier kind of hit the ground running and be on the move right away. Right. I can be up but not be totally up yet.
17:55
It's okay. Yeah, take it slow. Doesn't matter what kind of exercise You do in the morning? I don't think
18:01
so I think could be anything you'd want. I do a lot of different things. Some days it's calming yoga and just kind of being gentle to himself and other days it's more cardio or weights So okay, it could be whatever whatever you need or whatever you enjoy doing. Hmm I don't do things I don't enjoy like I'm I'm not a runner.
18:22
Morning Sure. Mostly ever.
18:27
But yeah, I don't think it would matter as long as it's something that you feel okay about doing and then you feel good.
18:35
Right I like all this piece you're talking about taking care of yourself feels like in this whole shifting process over the years. You really not are not only prioritize sleep, you also prioritize self care. self compassion.
18:51
Yeah, I think that's probably been the biggest part is because while I was noticing when it was the other way, and I wasn't getting enough sleep, and I Felt stressed about it and other things, that it wasn't really sustainable. And already being in the midst of stressful situations like graduate school or things like that as that I, I did need to make that shift. Right. And that seemed to make the most sense. And seem to have the most kind of long term gains and benefit from it. Right. But generally just practicing kind of that self care, peace and compassion, I think has gone a long way.
19:31
Yeah, that's great. Yeah. Another thing you mentioned earlier, I'm curious, is this every 15 to 20 minutes shift, right? How do you decide that okay, this is good enough, I can make further shift.
19:46
Mm hmm. You mean for like, setting up? You know, when what time Have I hit? Is that good for me? Right. Yeah. So, so figuring out or kind of paying attention to How can I guess? Different hours of sleep? How makes you feel the best? Are you someone who doesn't need as much to seven hours? Some people feel okay on that. I need more. I'm more like nine hours I feel okay. So, I guess for example, you could see like, if it's the weekend or maybe you're on vacation, how long does your body naturally sleep for? That could be a good kind of indicator of Alright, I need to lengthen my sleep time. So if you sleep for eight hours on vacation, you wake up feeling rested. Okay, that's a good place to start. Let's first start so we get about eight hours. If you're only sleeping, maybe five or six, maybe good to start getting aiming towards that eight to eight hours. Kind of gradually lengthening. Any sudden change. As you know, sudden increase or decrease of sleep is not quite sustainable and our bodies won't like That's so much but once you figure out that and I kind of planned backwards from my work, so if I need nine hours of sleep or so, right, more like eight to nine I've been to work at a certain time so if I have to be there at you know, leave my house at 730 I kind of worked back and I made sure that I had enough time like okay, it takes one hour for everything to get ready, you know, from like, after workout to I'm ready to walk up the door. Mm hmm. So I've kind of built that in which is some buffer time on either and
21:34
yeah, so years ago, you know, when you are still night or you're still like, feel energetic at 11 you may shift a little bit. Do you like just give it some time and feels like oh, I can falsifying get up fine. And then I think now I can move half an hour or I can go from 11 to 1045
22:00
Yeah, I think so if you're finding, okay, I'm still staying up later than I want or I still feel rushed in the morning. I think it could make sense to continue shifting it a little bit. If you there's more things that you would like to accomplish in the morning, say maybe you wanted to add a workout class or an online class something in the morning, that work best for your schedule. I think it would be worth the effort to if it's really something that would be helpful and beneficial to you to work on shifting your sleep schedule for that. But as long as you're getting enough sleep, and you're not feeling fatigued in the day, you're not stressing about it. I think that would be probably enough. Okay. Yeah, there's no perfect number. It's I can't say what's perfect for everybody but just kind of trial and error. Turn seeing. Do I feel rested? Do I feel okay, here? Are there any issues that are coming up? Yeah. Problem solving that
23:01
right that's great to really figure out your own what works for yourself right your own body, your own signals. So do you still need a snooze button in the morning right
23:12
now, I don't hit the snooze button. If I'm feeling sluggish in the morning, which of course happens to everyone, all do an extra 10 minutes sitting with my cup of coffee, or maybe a second cup of coffee if I need it. But I build that in and just say this is where I need to put that time today. I'm not awake enough. Okay, um, and maybe choosing like a lighter workout in the morning or things like that where I can kind of take more time for myself to try to gear up and get ready for the day and get energized.
23:48
So really make sure you always get up around the same time when the alarm goes off. And then build your needs either place. Exactly, if you're up
24:01
and moving, you're going to start feeling better. laying in bed, that sluggish feeling is going to continue. And you might fall back asleep. And as I mentioned before, all the guilt and everything that comes with it is a not as helpful. So it's much better used, I think, at least for me, for me, it's better to use that time, something that I do enjoy doing. That's getting me up and moving in the morning.
24:26
I see. That's great. Wow, that's not easy to do that during the weekends. Also the same time,
24:33
pretty close. If I'm not feeling well, or you know, something, I'll let myself sleep more. Otherwise, my alarm is set for half an hour later than it is during the weekday. Okay, so I feel a little bit luxurious. I'm sleeping in a little bit and uh huh. I make sure in the morning, I still have I still do coffee which I keep a lot of that routine the same, right? But I try to keep it as consistent as possible. The weekends are so short and Monday rolls around so fast. Yeah. That it. It makes Mondays better. Because I can sleep at a regular of my regular time that half hour of sleep in the morning doesn't impact Sunday night. Right. So I still go to sleep about the same time and still kind of wake up. Okay. On Monday morning.
25:20
Yeah, that's so important. The consistency,
25:23
right, exactly, exactly.
25:25
Mm hmm. Another quick question is, do you so if you are married, you sleep with a bad partner, right? A lot of people do have that struggle. If their schedule and their bed partner schedule is different somehow. How do you align this does that impact you at all?
25:45
It did until quite recently. So my partner had a very different schedule than I did.
25:53
The his work was much later in the morning and he worked late nights even After coming home was still working until hours after I was asleep. Wow. So vastly different. So we had many, many conversations over time about this. So in the mornings, I kind of did my own thing and let him sleep Of course, at nighttime, we still did part of that nighttime routine together. Oh, so we tried to sync up and spend some of that quality kind of calming down time together. He just made sure not to get ready for bed. But if I'm saying hey, I want to watch this show, it looks funny in light, he would try to find about half hour or so in there to kind of sit with me sit down actually sit in the bed. And then after I was more tired, he would get up and continue on with his work night. So it recently shifted though, where this was an interesting process to watch and to try to help with. So he recently switched jobs where now he is required to be at work as early as I am. Wow, actually a little earlier than I am. And no longer works those late nights. So he got on my schedule. Well, this sounds like a big shift, or it was it was a big shift. And usually I would have wanted him to do this very gradual. It worked out funny enough that we actually traveled internationally to the other side of the world. So when we came back, we were both very dysregulated in terms of what time we should sleep or be awake, right. And so basically what we did after we got back we slept for like a day. And then we immediately went to my schedule. We just slept so that we were arrested and immediately went to that schedule. And the first couple nights we used melatonin to sleep. Oh, and so otherwise I wouldn't have wanted him to do it that intensely fast, right?
27:56
Oh, I was shift for him.
27:59
It was a was a multi hour shift. So we were visiting a place where it was opposite. Yeah, so we were both disoriented. So it made sense just Hey, let's just go
28:08
for it perfect timing it was
28:10
timing right I
28:12
still have two against two biological
28:14
still walking both of us working against our biology there. Right so it was kind of not only difficult to get back to it, but for him to take on a brand new schedule he hadn't done before. And we're still fine tuning for him of what activities to do when like, cuz he's more of like a after work workout person. So figuring out our what our is best for me to do this. When does it help? When does it hurt? So we're still actually in the process of that.
28:43
Yeah. So I really like even though your schedule are not aligned, you guys find time to spend quality relaxing time together. So you got your wine downtime. He got to spend time with you. And he could do his work. You could sleep Exactly. And sounds like there's a lot of respect to each other's need and space, both in the morning and night there.
29:06
And that was very important when you're on such different schedules. I know this doesn't speak to sleep as much, but
29:12
we should be very important. well being. Yeah, well,
29:16
right, exactly. That was something that were basically prioritized and said, this needs to happen. How are we going to make it happen? And it just so worked out that my like bedtime wine downtime was his like, break time? Yeah. So we utilized and he did his best to schedule meetings later earlier. Right. So it worked out. But I think it's kind of a special little niche that we found there of how to make it work together.
29:46
Yeah, sounds like a lot of great discussion happened as a couple together, right. So this is important how we can work as a team to make it happen, especially to people who are
29:57
living such different schedules and And also biologically needing different things. I need more sleep than he does. So we're figuring out how what does that look like? Right. And so still kind of solidifying. It's been a couple months since this big change of his so I'm still working on it's working. Okay. Yeah. So it's still changing some things for him.
30:18
Right. Not only you had this successful shift for your own schedule, now you're witnessing and helping him to make such a big shift from a night owl, or night schedule to early morning schedule. Mm hmm. Wow. It's amazing. That looks like it's totally doable. Yeah, I know, clinically, sometime when we treat sleep disorders when we treat insomnia. We think that's actually really hard to do, which was hard. You took you years. So sometimes it's very common for people to use melatonin at night and bright light in the morning. I really help it.
30:57
Yes, I think that's one thing. I don't think I missed. And that when I do get up and I leave the bedroom and go to make coffee, I turned on all just all of them. Just like I have kitchen and coffee maker there. I just turn them on and I turn them bright and it's painful at first. It's kind of a rude awakening, but I can still sit and relax, but the light is helping my brain wake up. And I know that and it's such a minimal effort thing to flip a couple extra light switches on.
31:24
And I think that helps overall.
31:25
Ray. Okay, yeah, so early morning light, consistent schedule, night when you know, things are really hard and try melatonin a little bit. But really the most important thing is to figure out your
31:40
own bodies get Do you have the most important how much sleep do you need? And what makes sense for your current lifestyle jobs or other commitments? Right. And how are you going to fit that in? Yeah, so and kind of work backwards from there.
31:54
Yeah, I did. Great. Well, thank you very much. This is a really helpful Possibly can encourage a lot of audience who are having similar struggles trying to figure out or I can imagine some people already feel disappointed or hopeless with their own sleep situation, right? Yes,
32:14
it's stressful. And it's doable, right? You're persistent and try to figure out how do I take care of myself first sleeps a big part of that right and lots of different small things that you can do to get you there.
32:26
Yeah. Wonderful. Thank you, Sarah, for coming to the show. Of course. Thank you, Sean. As you can see, shifting your circadian rhythm is possible. Just need to follow some strategies and taking good care of yourself in the process. You will find more about Dr. burden, our show note at deep into sleep.co forward slash episode four slash 034. She actually is my colleague working in my clinic at Mind Body garden psychology and you can find her profile on our website at Mind Body garden calm. She is an autism specialist and she is a great psychologist. Just like she said, Please be patient and take baby steps when you are shifting your circadian rhythm and really listen to what your body needs starting from there. Thank you very much for listening today and hopefully today's episode gave you some inspiration, some hope and help you realize there's something you are able to do about your sleep schedule. Again, if you want to hear more about other topics, please feel free to either email me at a tion at Mind Body garden calm or you can leave me a voice message on our website at deep into sleep.co and I will get back to you and I will Consider the topics you suggested, and I will find the right expert to answer it for you. Thank you for listening. I will see you next week.
