Ep059: What Sleep Paralysis Feels Like and What We Can Do?--with Ryan Hurd
TIMESTAMPS
2:04 What got Ryan interested in learning sleep paralysis?
5:16 What is the role of belief in sleep paralysis?
8:10 Does the way you think impact how fast you heal?
10:44 How many percent of the population experience sleep paralysis?
13:05 How can young adults avoid having sleep paralysis?
16:43 Is there a way to get out of sleep paralysis when you’re experiencing it?
20:59 Why do you need to be relaxed during sleep paralysis?
22:00 Why wiggling the toes is considered as an effective way to break sleep paralysis?
23:25 What is the difference of sleep paralysis with lucid dreams, and hallucination?
29:44 How can lucid dreaming help those people who are suffering from sleep paralysis?
30:21 What methods can we use to determine that we are in a dream?
31:21 What is prospective memory?
35:16 Is it difficult for someone to determine if he’s in a dream or reality?
39:15 Is there a treatment for sleep paralysis?
TODAY’S GUEST
Ryan Hurd is a dream researcher and holistic educator. He authored several books including Sleep Paralysis and Lucid Immersion Guidebook. He is also the founder of DreamStudies.org, a site designed to teach dream education and consciousness studies. Currently, Ryan is serving as a lecturer of Holistic Studies and Psychology at John F. Kennedy University.
“Sleep paralysis education is normal. This is natural. This is part of being human and there’s resources that could help and you don’t have to keep it to yourself anymore.”
- Ryan Hurd
WHAT WILL WE LEARN
Ryan Hurd experienced sleep paralysis as early as 14 years old. In this episode, he’ll be sharing how sleep paralysis feels like to him and what we can get from his experience. Listen to find out more.
● What is happening in your body when you’re experiencing sleep paralysis?
● What are the main factors that contribute to why people are experiencing sleep paralysis?
● How to prevent sleep paralysis?
● What is REM sleep and how to deal with it?
RESOURCES
● Lucid Dreaming, New Perspectives on Consciousness in Sleep
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Transcripts
Dr. Yishan Xu 00:00
When you sleep, have you ever experienced that you cannot move your body at all, but you can be quite aware of what's going on around you? Sometimes you may even think you see or hear things and you have this kind of hallucinations. If you search online, the keyword sleep paralysis, you will read a lot of similar stories and see a lot of bizarre pictures about this. So what is sleep paralysis? And how does that relate to lucid dreaming that we talked about in a previous episode? How to deal with it? How to understand it? If I have this kind of experience? Does that mean there's a ghost living in my house? Or does that mean something is wrong with me? Let's find out more from our today's guest Ryan Hurd. He is author of the book Sleep Paralysis, and the co- editor of another book, Lucid Dreaming, New Perspectives on Consciousness in Sleep. He is also the founder of dreamstudies.org. and someone who experienced sleep paralysis quite often, how does that look like for him, and what can we get from his experience? Welcome to another episode of Deep Into Sleep. I'm your host Yishan. Hi, Ryan, welcome to Deep Into Sleep podcast.
Ryan Hurd 01:37
Oh, thank you for having me today. It's great to be here with you.
Dr. Yishan Xu 01:40
So I am really glad to have you. I know you have done quite a lot of research and on the topic of sleep paralysis. And you also came to Stanford to talk about sleep paralysis once. So do you want to introduce yourself to our audience and also who you are, what you do and what got you interested in this topic?
Ryan Hurd 02:03
Yes, absolutely. I'm Ryan Hurd, and I'm a dream researcher and holistic educator. And I'm the author of several books on dreams, Lucid Dreams, and a book on Sleep Paralysis coming out into its second edition on Halloween 2020. It's so great that we have the Stanford connection. Yes, I came to visit twice, I came to Dr. Demens class on dreams and was able to lecture there and I had a great time, got to lecture with Stephen Laberge or follow Stephen Laberge. And we both got to share the stage and talk about lucid dreams. And so that was a fantastic experience to be at Stanford, and so now I'm serving a Unitarian Universalist Congregation as their spiritual educator for adults and for children. And I am also an adjunct professor at John F. Kennedy University in Psychology and Holistic Studies where I teach about psychology and dream psychology in particular. So for me, sleep paralysis as a topic is very personal, because I experienced it myself and still do as early as 14 years old. Kind of the classic case for me, in which I had, of course, knew nothing about the topic and I was having a nightmare. I was in that dream. And in the dream, there was a phone ringing, and it was sort of one of these old fashioned phones from the 80s. Or you pick up the phone and I'm like, Hello, hello. And in this voice comes through this dripping with evil. It says darkness rules. And I freaked out, woke up from the dream, you know, sat up in the bed and said, okay, you know, I captured my breath. And as I settled back down to rest, I felt suddenly that I was trapped. I felt a pressure on my chest and I felt like I couldn't move and the more I tried to move, the more I felt pressure on my chest like I was being held down by someone or something and I was so scared. And at the same time thinking about the nightmare I just had that I attributed to this darkness voice and so you know, literally the voice of evil was holding me down is what my brain is telling me. And of course that just made my fear spiral more and the feeling lasted for I don't know, maybe 20 or 30 seconds, and it faded. And I didn't sleep for hours after that. I was terrified to turn the light on. Tried to, you know, do something else. That's the classic experience of sleep paralysis.
Dr. Yishan Xu 04:53
Yes. Wow. That young age, I cannot even imagine how scary that is. Especially when you interpret that as evil voice and evil is like has the power to hold you down?
Ryan Hurd 05:07
Yes, and that's something that I'm finding when I speak to lots of people about their own encounters is that belief plays a powerful role in the actual experience of sleep paralysis, because what happens is that we go into a very fearful frame of mind. And this is important, in people who've experienced this know that you feel like you're awake. So there's these sensations occurring of being held down, and we can talk about the science of that in a second. There's these sensations happening, there could be visual hallucination, a vision of a creature in the room, or even, you know, a ghost with you. And at the same time, there's this sort of this logic, this metacognition, we would say, in a dream, researchers could say, where we feel like we're awake, and we're like, this can't be happening, this can't be happening, and yet it is. And so that sort of ultra reality is what makes it especially terrifying.
Dr. Yishan Xu 06:06
Yes, and in my culture, Asian culture also does hallway, hold this kind of belief and interpret that in a very superficial way. There's some, like, very negative evil ghost type of figures there contribute to this. So you mentioned belief plays a role. So the beliefs, are they more like, do you find they're more a negative role? Do they make this symptom more likely to happen?
Ryan Hurd 06:39
That's, I think, an open question. And so there's some research being done right now in the UK by University of London goldsmiths that's actually investigating that specific question, what is the role of belief in sleep paralysis. And they have done one study that has shown at least to a survey, that people for instance, who have more a belief in paranormal activity, they believe in ghosts or the voice of evil, that kind of thing, are more likely to have a negative experience. Basically, to be sort of harmed more by the encounter than those who don't hold those kind of beliefs. That's a key that we're beginning, I think, to unlock in terms of what is this relationship but belief can have a positive role as well. And I think this is something that is not often discussed in the full spectrum of what can happen in a sleep paralysis and a visionary experience. Because for instance, the ancient Greeks had a culture of dream incubation, where they would call the god Asclepius for healing. And these involve sometimes the God coming to stand by the supplicants bed and then put his hands on them to provide healing energies in. There's a very good chance that these people were sometimes experiencing what we would call sleep paralysis with hypnagogic hallucinations. But because they had a culture, primed for positivity for healing, their expectation, perhaps was different. And it led to a different experience or outcome.
Dr. Yishan Xu 08:24
Oh, that's quite interesting. So how our beliefs, what we think about the power of thinking can really impact either how we heal, or how we suffer more?
Ryan Hurd 08:40
That's not to say that positive beliefs can just sort of wash it all the way when it's happening, because this is still a very, I think it's neurologically set to be a negative experience. And that's the default. And it is the primary way that people experience it, whether or not they have paranormal beliefs, or even if they have beliefs, or culture around, say, a nocturnal assault. Like you say, in your culture, there's some tradition for it. You know, in some United States, subcultures where there's no traditions, people experience it as alien abduction. So it's interesting, you know, a belief isn't everything, but it does seem to color the possibilities or sort of change where in the spectrum of possibility you are.
Dr. Yishan Xu 09:26
Yes. Well, we are talking about all these ghosts, all these beliefs and reminded me of your book coming out on Halloween day, is that chosen purposely Halloween, this interesting time of the year?
Ryan Hurd 09:43
Right, the veil is thin as we say, it seemed like a nice time to release this updated version of the book. The book has been out for 10 years. And since then, I've received so much reader feedback, new stories. And interestingly, the clinical research has moved a lot in the last decade. And so I was able to incorporate some of this new research into my review.
Dr. Yishan Xu 10:12
Yes, so what's the name of your book, is that about sleep paralysis?
Ryan Hurd 10:16
Yes. So the title is Sleep Paralysis, and it's a guide to hypnagogic visions and visitors of the night and, and this is the basic cover here. And the new version will also have the same cover, essentially, but it'll say second edition on it. And what's so interesting about this book has never been a bestseller. But it continues to sell enough because people continue to have the experience. It's just seems to be one of these things that happened to us. And I think that what the research shows is that about 8% of the population experiences sleep paralysis at some point in their life. But the likelihood of experiencing it goes way up, depending on how old you are, as well as things such as your sleep, hygiene, how much sleep you're getting, the quality of that sleep, as well as things such as anxiety, and even things such as how much caffeine is in the diet and things that can you know, indirectly influence anxiety. And so you put that together, students suffer terribly from sleep paralysis, young people in general, but students in particular, who stay up late to study Sleep, sleep is erratic, caffeine at odd hours, caffeine mixed with alcohol at odd hours, you know, disrupt sleep waves, right? And then just the anxiety of being young. And so all this kind of comes together. And so people are very likely to have it as young adults.
Dr. Yishan Xu 11:44
Well, that totally makes sense. Think about my outstanding, rare experience of sleep paralysis that happened during my college years. Yeah, I was a young adult, super busy studying a lot. If you don't get enough sleep. That's when it happened.
Ryan Hurd 12:03
Wow. Yes, that's it, that's the case. And when I went to Stanford and talked to students, I mean, I think over half of the people in the room raised their hand if they had experienced it before. And so getting the word out to students, and other vulnerable populations is a part of my work in hoping that, you know, number one, hey, we can talk about this. Number two, you're not necessarily being haunted by a demon. There's some physiology here in it that relates really to dream science, that we can unpack. And number three, that there's ways to manage these symptoms in order to prevent it from happening by looking at your sleep hygiene and, and shifting some, you know, kind of key behaviors.
Dr. Yishan Xu 12:49
Yes, that's great. Sounds like we can find a lot more of this information in your book. I definitely want to read your book to learn more about this. I think I only know this phenomena before, but I never really studied deeply into it, to understand. Then for college students, or any one who has sleep paralysis, or this lucid dreaming even less, for example, sleep paralysis first, is there anything young adults can do? You mentioned several things, sleep hygiene, caffeine, other things, if they want to start somewhere to help themself, like is there a place they can get started?
Ryan Hurd 13:31
Right. So isolated sleep paralysis is when one has these experiences and it's not related to another primary sleep disorder, such as sleep apnea or narcolepsy. People in those camps also suffer terribly from sleep paralysis as a sleep symptom. But isolated sleep paralysis occurs without a primary sleep disorder, and basically it sort of seems to be number one, and there's some hereditary there. So you may just be prone to have it. And number two, anxiety and when sleep is disrupted, those seem to be trigger points, for those who are prone to have it. The third piece is that certain sleep positions can actually instigate it more likely than others. And for instance, sleeping on one's back is known to instigate sleep paralysis more than on the side or on the stomach. And then that's not an absolute, I've had it in all sleep positions. That's just the way it is for me. But I do know that if I sit by my back, I'm basically asking for it. Students, I mean, right? There's not too much one can do about needing to study all the time. If you're prone to it, and you know this, you can say,I'm not going to have caffeine after say 1pm because this is happening. That's an easy mark to make keep the caffeine from there, reduce alcohol or cannabis consumption. Because these are again instigators that mess with sleep in its function and in how strong and secure it is. And so easier said than done for some but these are things that we know, also you know, exercising at odd times and exercising at night may have a role to play. And so it comes back down to relaxation strategies, and mindfulness. And so trying to go to sleep after having a period of relaxation can be very helpful. Taking a bath, reading something comforting, using music, whatever kind of works for you to relax before sleep can possibly have a way of preventing these episodes from occurring.
Dr. Yishan Xu 15:50
I see. So it sounds like there are a lot of lifestyle changes we can make. And there's a lot of things we can do similar to how we can improve our sleep quality in general. When we pay more attention to that, if we are prone to having sleep paralysis, adjusting your lifestyle, or your sleep habit can really help us with less experience of sleep paralysis. That's one possibility. But once we are in it, in the episode of it, a lot of people find it very scary that you cannot move, you cannot get out of it. Some people may be stuck in that for long. Is there a way for us to help ourselves to get out of that? Or should we just calm down, let it go, let it pass?
Ryan Hurd 16:43
Well, what you just mentioned is actually a pretty good solution to it. But maybe this is a good time to just talk a little bit about the physiology piece. Because there are some tactics in there based on understanding the physiology. And so what sleep paralysis or technically awareness during sleep paralysis is, is the awareness of muscle atonia. That happens during a transition out of REM sleep into wakefulness. And so essentially, during REM sleep, and this happens every night for all of us whether or not we remember our dreams, when we are in REM sleep, which is known as dreaming sleep. Most of the skeletal muscles, including the diaphragm are depressed in terms of activity. And so this may have an evolutionary function. Not really sure. But in any case, when we're in REM sleep, major muscle groups are inactive there. So what happens with sleep paralysis is the body stays asleep. But the mind kind of wakes up. Interestingly, some people open their eyes during the process. And so essentially, you're in a hybrid state of reality that is akin to dreaming with your eyes open while feeling the sensations of muscle paralysis. So one tries to move one's body and feels that dampening effect I can't move and it can be interpreted as something's holding me down. And it can happen to the chest, it can happen with the throat. Also, because REM sleep and REM sleep is an odd state of consciousness, the brain is very active. It's active, sort of sometimes it's more active than it is in the waking life. And there's also the engagement of the genitals that happens, comes and goes with REM sleep. And so there can be feelings of genital engorgement, and sexuality that co mingle with some of these horrible feelings. And so personal narrative can play a role and there's actually some evidence that people who have suffered childhood sexual abuse seem to have more sleep paralysis than those who haven't had that experience. And during those encounters, they essentially go into what we could call a PTSD or post traumatic state, where they re experience past abuses. So it can be very intense, very scary, to the point of death anxiety for some people. And the other piece of that strong emotion I mentioned is also related to REM sleep, because in REM sleep emotions kind of rule the roost. The middle brain is very active, the amygdala, which processes a lot of emotions, and in particular fight or flight responses. Very active during REM sleep. And so when we're experiencing hallucinations and feelings of being held down, we're awake and aware, but more likely to access long term memory because we're in REM sleep. So we're pulling up old childhood associations with what is evil and what is the folklore associated with evil. During this the amygdala says hey, let's make this even creepier and it becomes just blown out of fear so that's a lot, right. And I'd have to say that the hallucinations, you know, I think only 20% of people experience full blown hallucinations or full blown sexual assault experiences, that's even more rare. And I would say very tabooed, it's difficult to talk about, because people feel like they might not be believed. So that's the big package, it has to do with REM, sort of a hybrid REM state, shifting into waking life. And how to deal with that is precisely, number one, understanding this is physiological. And so I recommend people to have, essentially, a scientific mantra so to speak, and to say, I'm experiencing sleep paralysis, this is a normal, natural thing that happens. And so kind of, you can rehearse such a statement, and that can provide some comfort for some people. It is second, you mentioned how it could be to relax, to let it pass. And that actually is a very good tactic, fighting back against this paralysis feelings, only intensifies the physical aspect of it, which sort of caused that rolling ball of fear, and then more visions, and then a worsening experience. Anyway, that one can relax. And so there may be a way that that’s individual to each person to think about something or someone or perhaps an item of faith that can provide them with some safety or security. To help allow them to relax and it could be just mindfulness in the scientific knowledge that relaxing is helpful. So it doesn't matter if you're atheistic or agnostic or you have a strong belief system. In a religious tradition, I think attuning yourself to it, having an awareness of your own tradition can be powerful. And then lastly, a very practical concern is to break the paralysis itself. One of the most effective techniques is to try to wiggle your finger or your toes, because physiologically, this can break up the REM paralysis. And someone can come out of the state with that.
Dr. Yishan Xu 22:19
Yes, I really love this strategy. And sounds like there's some similarity with treating insomnia. This kind of awareness of physiology, understanding the science behind it, and understanding certain things are normal and can reduce our anxiety already. And then we can use other strategies to help it further.
Ryan Hurd 22:42
Yes, I think that's a great metaphor, because we know that insomnia, half of it is anxiety. Oh, I'm not sleeping. I have to wake up at 5am. Why can't I skip to sleep? And some people actually fall asleep and dream about having insomnia and the anxiety continues. And so awareness of insomnia that hey, this is normal. People wake up in the middle of the night all the time and this is okay. I don't have to sleep eight hours, in a gigantic block of time. I may be wired a little differently. Maybe I'll do something else right now till I feel sleepy again, like having different kinds of narratives. Possibility makes a huge difference in most of these cases.
Dr. Yishan Xu 23:24
Yes, definitely. You just mentioned stand alone sleep paralysis. Then what's the relationship between sleep paralysis, hallucination, and lucid dreaming? Because people always talk about this all together.
Ryan Hurd 23:39
Yes, I mentioned how sleep paralysis, the primary experience is that feeling of being held down with intensive feelings. The secondary piece would be what we call hypnagogic hallucinations. And so hypnagogia is a fancy Greek word for at the bookends of sleep basically, coming out of sleep, or in hypnopompic is the other term that's used. So hypnagogic is imagery seen, while falling asleep. Hypnopompic is an imagery experience, while waking up. Sleep Paralysis is likely to happen in either of these scenarios and hypnagogic hallucinations are different than, say REM imagery. Sometimes it can be a projection of abstract geometrics, or often repeating images, say rather than a spider, it’s 100 spiders, and they're crawling all over the wall. So there can be repeating patterns to motifs that happen in hypnagogia. So some people are saying yes, sleep paralysis is REM like, but there's this hypnagogic element sometimes as well, because it's at sleep onset. And the definitions, I think are fuzzy because sleep onset is fuzzy. The physiology of sleep onset is fuzzy. It can feel like deep relaxation to some people, other people can be woken up out of it and be like I was asleep. So there's a difference I think, feeling that's individual to all of us about what that looks like. Then the other aspect that I mentioned briefly is, the visitor of the night, right? This I call the stranger. This sort of doppelganger effect that happens, in which people in sleep paralysis will experience something or someone standing at the foot of their bed, or perhaps even experiencing them sitting down next to them, or laying hands on them. They can physically feel their hands. I actually had this experience two nights ago. I felt someone's hands on my lower back as I was sleeping. And I was like, nope, nope, that's nope, it's not happening tonight. And I woke myself out of it, rolled over onto my side, and went to sleep. So some people experienced this more than others. And again, the default is negative. This is where the term old hag comes from some traditions, it's called the witch riding you or the devil gets you. The ghost holding you down is another translation for some Vietnamese traditions. Japanese traditions also have some pretty strong, I say culture around like an entity that sort of wraps itself around you. And so there's these different variations that we see all over the world, which really shows us it's universal in terms of human experience, and are near universal. And yet culture plays a role, culture and expectation play this really fascinating role. And so when positive expectation, or the possibility of a neutral expectation occurs, these entities can shift, they sort of shape shift, and they're tricksters in that sense. Some, they can become self like entities, the doppelganger, it can be a version of oneself sitting with you. It can be an ancestor. It can be an angelic beatific figure, full of light and hope, esteemed figures, it can be a bizarre figure kind of out of left field, like someone you're like, why is this person on the edge of my bed? I don't know. There's this interesting, identity shifting that happens once we move out of the fear place. And we see that there's other kinds of things going on. And people have encounters, they have discussions with these creatures. There's all kinds of wonderful historical anecdotes about this stuff too, that goes back for centuries. So it's just such a, I think, a marvelous topic, especially around Halloween. Where we're allowed to talk about ghosts, we're allowed to talk about spirits and entities. And also that it's not so scary necessarily, that we can be in contact with other worldly creatures, whatever their source may be, and be changed by them.
Dr. Yishan Xu 27:58
Yes, I have this very interesting image while you're talking about that. Some people when they see these creatures, either in their dream, or during Halloween time, they may yell and run. And for other people, they may like to face the scary creature and sit down, and say let's have a talk. It's a very different approach.
Ryan Hurd 28:22
Yes, absolutely, and those kinds of approaches work well. And it's interesting how creative people also have received a lot of insight from these encounters. A fashion designer I discussed in my book,used to have these terrible experiences of this creature that would come and sort of lord over her. And then one day, this is happening, one night is happening. And suddenly she had this odd thought, which is, what is this thing wearing? This is a clothing designer. And so she becomes suddenly very interested in fabric and the stitching of the garment that this creature is wearing. And as that happens, she lost her fear. And the creature shifted and became less menacing. And she wakes up and remembers the stitching in the cut of this clothing and begins designing a line of clothing based on it. And so she was able to take this fearful encounter and use it to directly fuel her creative process.
Dr. Yishan Xu 29:30
Yes, that's a very creative way of thinking about how we can get out of it. Instead of just being full of fear, denial and trying to avoid or run away from it. How to face it, how to understand it. It's interesting because it reminds me of one talk I had when I went to Sleep Society. I remember one psychologist mentioned, when he is stuck in this type of dreams, he uses a lucid dream word. But he mentioned he noticed it is helpful if we are able to use some kind of method to remind ourselves that we are in a dream, that actually can be very helpful. And there are some certain ways we can train ourselves to know we are actually in our dream or in a reality to separate these two. What do you think about it?
Ryan Hurd 30:25
Yes, that's a great example of how lucid dreaming and sort of the methods and the philosophy of lucid dreaming can help those who suffer from sleep paralysis. Because sleep paralysis is essentially a form of heightened metacognition during a dream state where I am aware that I am in a dream. I am aware that I'm experiencing sleep paralysis is a very specific form of meta awareness that usually doesn't happen in dreams to that heightened extent. And so when one knows, one is dreaming, there's choice, there's possibility. And there's also this ability to remember things that I promised I would remember, which is prospective memory. The skill of prospective memory, which we use all the time, hey, when I go home today, after work, I've got to remember to take the bills out and put stamps on the envelopes. And when you successfully walk through your door at home, and you've remembered to do that you've achieved prospective memory, that's what we do. This is a waking life skill that, honestly, some of us are not so good at. I had to learn as I got older too. But this is a sleep paralysis skill, a lucid dreaming skill. And so, for instance, oh, I'm experiencing sleep paralysis. Oh, yeah. I said I was going to say a prayer when this happened next, and then say the prayer. So that's in a way to anchor an intentional act, to a memory or to a tactic to see what happens. And so that's a very useful skill from the lucid dreaming community that works with sleep paralysis.
Dr. Yishan Xu 32:04
That is something we need to consciously remind ourselves or try when we are awake, then it's easier for us to really deliberate when we are dreaming.
Ryan Hurd 32:16
Yes, it is. And so it helps I find to write these things down to write them out to sort of solidify the intention. In my book, there's a worksheet where one can write down these kinds of things. This is what I would like to think about, this is what I would like to bring in. This is what I'd like to do. For instance, because we haven't talked about this yet, but sleep paralysis is also a portal to the experiences of out of body experience. And it's a natural gradation into those experiences. People very easily will have sleep paralysis and say, Oh, yeah, I wanted to try to out of body and do a tactic in which there's a feeling of separation from the physical body, a splitting of core self from the imaginal body. Perhaps you could say, I mean, whether or not this is actually out of body, I think, I leave that to the believer to the dreamer. But the experience is phenomenal. It's really interesting. And this can happen very easily from a sleep paralysis state.
Dr. Yishan Xu 33:22
Great, I have to buy your book and keep those worksheets for my patients. Because I know there are some people, sometimes they are already experiencing it, and they are not getting enough help. There are not a lot of resources. Actually in our Sleep Society recently, there are some sleep specialists that are asking around for sleep paralysis, lucid dreaming related materials, it can really sit down to the patient.
Ryan Hurd 33:50
That's great. And I need to say that, Brian Sharpless, who is a clinical psychologist has made great headways with sleep paralysis treatment clinically, specifically using cognitive behavioral therapy methods. And so these are a lot of the stuff we've already discussed. But in a more formalized setting and having a therapist help one. How using mindfulness, using relaxation techniques, using perspective memory, to calm down or to disassociate the emotion in the experience so that it ebbs and flows. And he's been having some excellent success in it with his colleagues on this topic.
Dr. Yishan Xu 34:32
Great. Yes, we use cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia, to treat insomnia. And clinically I also use CBT to treat anxiety, depression, it is a very evidence based, standardized, good therapeutic tool. But people start adapting it to different clinical problems. It can be quite useful. Then regarding lucid dreaming, one more question. You said after we reached the metacognition that we are having sleep paralysis, where you have dreams and we can say a prayer is it easy or hard for people to recognize actually if I am dreaming right now instead of this is reality?
Ryan Hurd 35:17
For lucid dreaming in general? So, lucid dreaming is a learnable skill. And that's one of the great things that's come out of the last 30 years of research. Particularly by Stephen Laberge is that if there's a strong intention to do so, coupled with a couple of behavioral practices, the likelihood of going lucid in a dream, realizing, hey, I'm in a dream right now, is quite high. And in fact, there's even some evidence based research showing that people can learn how to lucid dream in two weeks time, if they practice specific practices. Some of them involve intentionality practices, others involve basically waking up in the middle of the night right before I'd say like after for after five hours of sleep, and then doing an hour of activity that's mental and engrossing. So it uses the, you know, the frontal regions of the brain and heightens that metacognition going then going back to sleep, when we're naturally physiologically primed for a big REM session in that early morning period. And that's the recipe right there early morning, plus increased cognitive in, you know, the frontal part of the brains, equals lucid dreaming. And so people are having lots of success by just doing a few of these practices. It's easier for some people than others, but most people can learn how to do it.
Dr. Yishan Xu 36:48
I remember one technique I developed myself as a child. Sometimes I had nightmares or bad dreams, then I realized some of those actually, are just dreams. Then later I decide in my dream, or any time if I'm not sure I'm dreaming or not, I’m gonna bite my finger. Because what I find in the dream, I have no bones in my fingers. When I bite it, it just goes in. And also no pain, no sensation in my dream. I don't know whether it's always true. But I remember that technique I use, for quite several times. And once I realized, oh, it's a dream, like I have no bones in my fingers that I can do whatever.
Ryan Hurd 37:35
That's awesome. Yes there's personalized techniques like that. So my go to, for a reality check is to hold my nose and then try to breathe. And if I'm in a dream, I'll still be able to breathe through my nose in waking life, I cannot. And so if I'm trying to do lucid dreams, I could do this practice during the day, say, 5 to 10 times a day. And seriously ask myself, am I dreaming? and suspend disbelief. That's the hard part, suspend disbelief. Am I dreaming right now? Then do the reality check. Oh, I can't breathe. So this is waking consensual reality? Well, using that habit, you know, it becomes a cognitive habit. And it'll emerge in the dream itself. And then one can essentially, that's how one can increase the likelihood as well. So those are fun, and everyone's got a different one. Some people say, Oh, I turn on the light switch. And if the light doesn't come on, then I know. That's the technique that doesn't work for me, because in my dreams, my light switches are pretty effective. So it could create a false negative. So it's important to find something that kind of works for the individual.
Dr. Yishan Xu 38:48
Right, so it sounds like if people are struggling with either sleep paralysis, or lucid dreaming, and the experience has been quite negative, there are ways to get out of it. There are ways to help themselves with it. There are even some treatments for it. Right?
Ryan Hurd 39:11
That's right. And that's the big picture is that isolated, sleep paralysis is something that we can manage, we can learn to work with it. And I would say it's an opportunity. It's an opportunity, it's a calling to that you're a big dreamer. And it's about sort of turning it from fear to empowerment to realizing Oh, I'm in an altered state of consciousness that has historically been used for some very cool purposes. Healing self knowledge, right. Gathering information, visiting ancestors experiencing other worlds and the dreamscape. So, it's the door to the imagination and imaginary realms.
Dr. Yishan Xu 39:52
Yes, I like how you view this opportunity as something like more possibilities for us to explore instead of something awful, heavy and scary only.
Ryan Hurd 40:08
Right? And again, knowing that there's this positive element, that doesn't mean to say that you're doing it wrong. If you have negative sleep paralysis experiences, I still do. It's par for the course. It's the way that we're neurologically primed, it appears sometimes, it's just enough for me to be like, Oh, I don't want to experience this right now and waking myself up. And so sometimes I feel the calling to go into these other realms. Sometimes I just, I don't have the bandwidth for it. And I'm like, no, I just want to get some sleep right now. Please leave me alone. In so just finding the tactics that work for you.
Dr. Yishan Xu 40:45
Yes. And sounds like you actually are able to manage it. You do have a choice. And, for you, personally, your anxiety about it is much lower now. It will not control your life.
Ryan Hurd 41:01
Absolutely. And I also use sleep paralysis as a kind of like, a red flag indicator that I am in an anxious place in general in my life. And so if I'm experiencing a lot of sleep paralysis, like in a cluster event, like two or three times in a night, or two or three times in a week, which sometimes happens for me personally, the first thing I think is, how much caffeine Am I drinking? And then I might discover, oh, wow, I'm up to three cups of coffee a day again? How did that happen? I'll immediately scale back my caffeine. And then I start looking at other things I can do? Am I taking enough walks in nature? Am I getting enough exercise? Am I taking time for myself for self care? How can I manage my own responses to the world because I can't manage the world, but I can manage my own reactions. And so that's where relaxation strategies and mindfulness play a big role.
Dr. Yishan Xu 41:53
Yes, that's great. So thanks for sharing all this wonderful information with our audience. At the end of the show, any final wisdom you want, let everyone know or emphasize to make sure that message is out.
Ryan Hurd 42:11
You know, the big message was sleep paralysis education is that this is normal. This is natural. This is part of being human. And there's resources to get help, and you don't have to keep it to yourself anymore. And so that's what I love talking to sharing about sleep paralysis.
Dr. Yishan Xu 42:28
Awesome. So if people want to know more about support resources, and I don't know whether there are support groups out there? Will they find some of the information in your book also?
Ryan Hurd 42:41
So Facebook is a good source for finding community. For people who suffer with sleep paralysis, you'll find, of course, a diversity of perspectives that go with that. So I'm not saying that I agree with everything that said out there. And some of these groups, I'm active in some of them, I manage one group that has over 20,000 members, and people share their sleep paralysis experiences, and it's a huge group, and people come in, and they're suffering, and they're freaked out. And then our sort of veteran dreamers come in, say, Hey, have you tried this? Or have you tried this or just calm people down? Hey, I was there too. And it's amazing how much community can make a difference. And reminding people that they're not alone in this phenomena, even if you're in your home, and no one else understands, or your friends don't understand. There are people who do, and if you suffer terribly from it, I would say we're experiencing it in clusters, multiple times a week. I would suggest seeing a medical professional or sleep specialist about it. Because it could be something physiological, it could be related to a larger issue like sleep apnea. It doesn't always happen. But it's always good to be sure if you're really suffering, you're losing sleep.
Dr. Yishan Xu 43:54
Sounds like there are a lot of resources people can consider. If it's severe, or they're not sure, go to find professional help. And if they need support, they can find quite a lot of online support groups or community resources to learn more about this topic.
Ryan Hurd 44:14
Yes. It's so nice to be in the age of the internet, because it's so much easier now than it ever has been.
Dr. Yishan Xu 44:19
Yes. And especially this year, I think, people do not even use the internet too much. This year, they start learning more and more, and they're quite a lot more communities that come out, I believe. So your books, the price is going to come out. The second edition doesn't come out at the end of this week, actually, Halloween time.
Ryan Hurd 44:40
That's right. So it should be out and I think it's gonna take the Kindle version a little longer just because of the way things work but, in the end of 2020, everything should be fired up and ready to go.
Dr. Yishan Xu 44:51
Okay, so by the time our show is out, I think I believe we are both going to be already out. Will people be able to find it on Amazon?
Ryan Hurd 44:59
So go to Amazon I say, you know, search for Sleep Paralysis and my name Ryan Hurd should be able to find the topic.
Dr. Yishan Xu 45:07
Great, I will put a link on the show notes as deepintosleep.co also. So whoever listened to today's episode, if they go to check out the show notes, they will also directly find the link to the title or the resource you mentioned. And they can do one click and go to your book.
Ryan Hurd 45:23
I would also say, my website is dreamstudies.org. And there's a lot of free sleep paralysis resources on my website. And so you don't have to buy the book. There's a lot, especially stuff about getting help now. And the most important core practices for getting sleep tonight can be found for free at dreamstudies.org.
Dr. Yishan Xu 45:44
That's wonderful. I'm definitely going to put your website there too. I'm sure a lot of people can benefit from the free resources also at least to get started, and how people can get some hope. And there's something I could do about this. Thank you very much for coming to the show, Ryan.
Ryan Hurd 46:01
Thank you for having me. It was such a fabulous discussion. It was really interesting to hear your personal experiences too.
Dr. Yishan Xu 46:07
I know. The more I talk about this topic, the more I realize, hold on, I had quite a lot of this experience while I was young.And I was not scared. It's just very interesting how that is without anxiety how I managed it just automatically. Fortunately, it's not very frequent. But it's quite an interesting experience.
Ryan Hurd 46:29
That's good to know.
Dr. Yishan Xu 46:33
Just like many other challenges in our lives. Sleep Paralysis is such a journey. We face it with fear, or power. It's our own choice. If your life has been negatively impacted by sleep paralysis, hopefully this episode empowers you somewhat and brings you some hope that there are great ways to deal with it. To read more about Ryan's work, you can go to our show notes at Deep into Sleep calm. I will put a link to his new book sleep paralysis, and his website dreamstudies.org on the show note. If you have any further questions, you are welcome to leave any comments either on our website or under the podcast. Your reviews can be really helpful to our podcast and can help us be fined by more audiences. If you are a returned audience I appreciate you so much. If you are new to our podcast welcome. So I will post a new episode every Wednesday morning. If you have any questions or topics you want to listen to, please feel free to leave a message and let me know. Thank you very much for your support. I will see you next week.
47:52
Sleep is an individual thing. We all sleep differently. And there is so much we can do to improve sleep quality. Keep hope and carry on. This podcast is for general informational purposes only and does not include the practice of medicine or other health professional services. The usage of the information we share is that the listeners own risk. And our content does not intend to be a substitute for any medical and professional services, diagnosis and treatment. Please seek professional health services as needed.