Ep046: Best method to cure insomnia!

www.deepintosleep.co

Tracy Hannigan

with Dr. Yishan Xu

TODAY’S GUEST

Tracy Hannigan, a psych grad and a healthcare practitioner trained in cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia. Tracy is a compassionate sleep coach who helps people with insomnia enjoy sound sleep, using proven, no-nonsense strategies, so they can live their active lives with renewed energy and focus.

WHAT WILL WE LEARN

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Insomnia (CBT-I) addresses the way we think about sleep as well as our beliefs about sleep as a whole to address issues with sleep anxiety, insomnia, and other sleep difficulties. CBT-I observes people’s beliefs on sleep and their behaviors around sleep to help with sleep struggles. 

  • Don’t forget that you can’t control your sleep patterns!

    • We may find ways to examine the reasons why we are not sleeping well, but it is better to accept that we cannot fall asleep.

    • Don’t obsess about the idea of sleeping.

  • Quantity is not necessarily a good measurement for how well you have slept

    • NOT track your sleep (by the number of hours).

    • NOT look at the clock while you are sleeping.

    • A better way to measure sleep is by how you feel throughout the day.

  • While mindfulness and meditation is often associated with an extreme experience, there is great evidence that it is an effective tool for your sleep toolbox

    • Practice mindfulness throughout the day first.

    • After you are better at the practice, then you can try it before sleep.

    • This helps you practice this tool in a stress-free environment. 

RESOURCES

Find more about Tracy’s sleep coach work on her website in UK.

Tracy’s Instagram and Pinterest:  @tracythesleepcoach

Tracy’s Sound Sleep Strategies group on FB.

Find more about Dr. Yishan Xu’s CBT for insomnia (CBT-I) services in California.

Thank You for Listening!

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Transcript

-Welcome Tracy to Deep into Sleep.


- Thank you very much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. 


- I'm so glad that we can connect over you know, internationally. I know you are in UK and I’m in California. 


- Yeah. And I think it helps that I'm an early bird and you're not.


- Yeah, so that’s a reason this definitely align perfectly. I'm night owl, you’re early bird. That's great.


Yeah, so I know you all before we start, how about you introduce yourself a little bit of to our audience, whoever is listening and watching? 


- Sure. What My name is Tracy Hannigan. And I live just outside of London in the UK. And I became interested in CBTI when I was suffering with insomnia and used CBTI myself, and kind of helped me on my recovery journey, and I'm a healthcare practitioner here in the UK. I'm an osteopath. And in my clinical practice, when I was beginning to do my work with people with physical pain, the issue of sleep just kept cropping up and up and up over and over and over again. And so what I decided to do is to go on and do some additional training, kind of top up psychology degree that I've done in the past, and to learn about how to help my patients more using CBTI because I just benefited from it so much. And, and as I started to use it with my clients, because we have quite long sessions and spend over an hour with somebody, you have the opportunity to drop things in and to start talking about these things. Eventually, people just started to come to me, just to book sessions to talk about sleep. And so my journey as a CBTI therapist just kind of spun from there. 


- Wow, that's great. So for CBTI the whole name I think, is Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Insomnia, right? So can you explain a little bit what that is? Because I think we possibly hear cbti or some audience may never heard about it. So some people may not know what that is. 


-Yeah, so cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia, it's different from cognitive behavioral therapy. So a lot of people think that they are the same, they might have heard of cognitive behavioral therapy, but they think that it might be the same exact thing that you apply it to sleep and it's a little bit different. So CBTI addresses the cognitive part the way we think about sleep, in order to address things like sleep anxiety, and the, the thoughts and behaviors that we start to develop around. Sleep and our, our beliefs about sleep. We dig into those in that cognitive part, the behavioral part of CBTI addresses sleep behaviors. What do you do when you aren't tired? You feel like you should go to bed, do you go to bed and lay there and wait to fall asleep or try to sleep? What do you do? So the cognitive behavioral part addresses both the thoughts and beliefs about sleep, as well as sleep behaviors. And it does this in order to kind of tweak and work with our natural sleeping systems because we have these natural systems that we don't lose just because we're not sleeping well, we just need to kind of use what we can in order to kind of nudge ourself in the right direction so that we start to sleep a little bit better. 


-So sounds like it is a method that not really depends on medication but actually behavioral, cognitive, this kind of strategy. 


-Yeah, and one of the things that really appeals to me about it is, is that it doesn't rely on anything external, which is perfect for people who may not be able to take medication. I mean, medication can help you sleep in the short term, but it doesn't actually resolve people's insomnia. Because it's all, It isn't just sleeplessness. Insomnia is this whole collection of thoughts and behaviors and sleeping patterns that disrupt the natural rhythm of our sleep. And we have to be able to address that from within ourselves. And what's interesting about it is for me is that you can't, you can't force it. So you might learn these cognitive strategies while you can't force the sleep to happen. So you're working with a natural system that's pretty robust anyway. You just have to develop a different relationship with with sleep in order to leverage that and then you begin to sleep more soundly and then longer throughout the process of CBT. I like it. We're not trying to control the sleep sounds like it's absolutely have to let go of needing to control it. Absolutely. We have to one of the things that I think people struggle with the most is the idea of not trying to sleep and it's almost built into the language that. But that people use about sleep while I was trying to sleep, or I was trying to do this. And it comes up in cbti when I talk about relaxation strategies and mindfulness is unless it's presented in a way that uses those strategies, for lack of a better word, it's not ideal in this particular context, if they use these strategies as part of their life, as part of their approach to living so that their anxiety level can come down. So they're not so hyper aroused. They're going to sleep better. But if they use these strategies, like a hammer and a nail, they try to go, Oh, I'm not sleeping, I'm going to pull out that book or that strategy is I'm going to read it and I'm going to do it and I try to use it to sleep, it's probably not going to work very well. We really have to more allow sleep to happen by changing how we think about it, and changing how we act around our sleep.


- Exactly. Sounds really interesting. So you mentioned when you first get to know this method, there are some personal struggles. So that means you used to also were in this cycle of trying to control sleep or cannot sleep very well?


-Definitely, definitely. So there were a couple of periods in my life then. The first largest one was after my husband died, so kind of in the bereavement process. And people experienced these things all the time, bereavements breakups, job losses. This particular experience for me was a bereavement. And obviously it disrupted my sleep. And I did what I thought I should do, which is try everything that I could and everything I could find to sleep. Now this was sort of like the days when the internet was just barely around. So it was actually probably a good thing that I didn't get to sit up all night and research things on the internet.

But I tried all of the various tricks that people told me to try. I tried sleeping in the daytime, going to bed early, staying in bed late. And essentially, I was training myself to sleep badly. And I don't judge anybody who's in that position because people don't know if they don't have the toolbox. And I didn't have the toolbox at the time. And but then having gone through the process of working with somebody around the sleep pavers in particular, that really, really helped sort me out. My thoughts and beliefs about sleep weren't as critical as my behaviors were, I think, and I think that's where not having internet was really helpful for me because I am somebody who would sit up and just research things to pieces all night long.


-And unless you have a broad view of what things mean, you can really go down a rabbit hole trying to find an answer. And that seeking and that trying, I now can see how disruptive it is for people. 


- Mm hmm. Yeah. So like you mentioned that you back then you really do not have the right toolbox, you did find a lot of available tools, other people hand over to you. They're just not very effective. So yeah, how did you get to know CBTI?


- um, I met somebody who was familiar with it, and they put me on to somebody who did it. And so it just happened to the luck that I found, found that that particular thread. 


- so you never heard about that. 


-I had never heard about it. No, never heard about it. And this was before I had done my degree in psychology, so I wasn't even aware of what CBT was. So I didn't even have the opportunity to be confused by that.


So I thought, well, I've tried everything else. I'll try that too. And it was a very eye opening experience.


- Very eye opening in what way? I really want to...  I'm curious about like to yourself since you are in this deep struggle and tough time tough moment in your life and you know it's the emotional pin and and sleep difficulties a lot of times in tangle. So what about CBTI really opened your eyes?


- I think particularly because I was experiencing a massive loss of control of everything in my life. And not having ever been a control freak but something like that will really throw anybody. It allowed me to see how my natural sleeping rhythm was supposed to work and how I could influence it and it almost seemed like it was the only thing I could do anything about. Which is why if I had the internet was going around looking, I would have tried to. Everything that I could find on the internet now and I tried everything because I was trying to control my sleep.


I was trying to, in a lot of ways control things I couldn't control besides my sleep, kind of as part of the acting out and that healing process after his death, but what it was sleep was something that I felt was tangible. Because I could measure the daylights out of it.


I could write it all down, I could keep really close track, which is something I now advise people not to do too much. And I was really trying to kind of control that, because I felt like I had to in order to fix it. And I learned that actually, I didn't have to do that. I had to kind of allow the sleep to happen.


 And I look at it now when I have kind of a blip in life like when lockdown happened in schools closed and my house was in the middle of sale everything. Like another kind of blip had this this toolbox of like, I can't control this which is one of the real life benefits of CBTI as well as you learn, you can't control everything. It changes your perspective on things.


- But I have this this toolbox that allowed me to kind of say, Okay, I don't have to try to sleep. I've been tired in the day before. I'll be tired tomorrow, it'll be okay. The next day is going to come and things. If anything, things always change. And that gives you a great kind of calmness, that when I first learned that trick through CBT, I just thought that thought process and changing that thought process, my anxiety level came down, and it made it easier to cope with everything even though I wasn't necessarily immediately sleeping better. I was able to cope with all of the other drama that was happening in life a lot better, because I wasn't so fixated on trying to fix the sleep problem. 


-Wow. Yeah, amazing. So sounds like being able to do something have the toolbox available for your sleep really empowered to you, and helped you to start dealing with other chaos, stress in your life much better. And it's so interesting, like the whole goal originally was to control sleep. But CBTI when will you say toolbox, some people may be here and think, oh, toolbox, another toolbox to help me control my sleep. Man, I really like what you mentioned, right? Actually a lot more than that. No, it's not it's actually let go of control. 


-Yeah, and I think a lot of the on the lot of the tools that go into the toolbox, you have to know how to use the tools. So sometimes people don't know the tools like I didn't know CBTIexisted. And within CBTI, especially now that it's developed so much. There's so many different sorts of pieces that get added around the core of it.


Some of my favorites tend to be kind of meditation and mindfulness. And then when I talk about this people will say, Well, what mindfulness techniques should I use to get to sleep at night. So we have to have this conversation about you can't use these things to control sleep, because it's counterproductive. And it doesn't, it doesn't help for a lot of reasons. One, if you try to use this kind of any kind of strategy to force sleep, you're just going to increase your anxiety about sleep, which is going to make you sleep more poorly. And it comes as a bit like a bit of a vicious circle.


-  

And the other thing is it kind of also missing an opportunity because mindfulness and or Acceptance and Commitment Therapy strategies, they shift your perspective on things in life in a way that lowers your anxiety level. And so as I began to learn those incorporate those in my life, that toolbox I originally kind of gathered the core of cbti material, and then started adding in these tools along the way that I now share with my clients. And they have changed not just my sleep life and my outlook.


Yeah, a little bit the toolbox isn't that the various different kinds of hammers that you can walk a nail with. So you have to know how to use these tools and using them that way is not necessarily helpful. 


-Right, right. So not just about the tools because some people can be really rushed just gave me something to nail my sleep just like a substitute for medication, right?


- Yes, they're desperate. And I totally can understand that desperation. There is nothing more horrible than laying in bed at night, looking at the ceiling, and just kind of counting the counting the minutes knowing that you're not going to sleep becomes a self fulfilling prophecy at that point as well. But I've been there. And like I said, I think everybody experiences things in their life. Sometimes people will develop insomnia as a result of that sleep disruption. And sometimes they won't I did. And I still experienced sleep disruption, but now I kind of I kind of have my toolbox I call it my wellness toolbox.


I'm not I'm not afraid of the lack of sleep, I might be annoyed by it. So I still experiences like a little bit of like a lack of acceptance. But when I when I find I'm doing that, I go back to part of CBTI with a stimulus control part. If I'm not feeling accepting of the situation, I get up and I get out of bed.


Because that works for me. Now that I'm more experienced in using those tools with the toolbox, sometimes I can just be in bed and it's okay. But it's difficult for me to and I think for anybody to explain to somebody who's come to come to see me for help first time to tell them to lay in bed and just accept that you're not sleeping because it's not gonna work for him. Well, I think that takes practice takes place and some go for me, I get annoyed. So then I get up out of bed.


- And I just, I really protect my my bed is that space for me to sleep. And sometimes I go to bed and I think, Oh, I'm white, I really want to read and I'm so well conditioned to sleep in my bed now that I can't do it. I have to read something. 


-So all these are good tips. Actually, what you're mentioning right earlier you mentioned you did something try and install they couldn't be helpful but ended up hurting your sleep. Mm hmm. 

-Yeah. From from the constant training. And I think that the things that people are told to try you know, the tip sheets with sleep hygiene techniques and things. They're not necessarily bad things for people who don't sleep badly. Their general good come common sense advice, but they they aren't helpful for people with with insomnia because they don't address the root issue.


They could kind of be a top up kind of like icing icing on the cake. But unless you have cake in there, the whole thing's just gonna melt into heat isn't going to work.


And the problem is that people keep seeking after the next thing and the next thing on the list and the next thing on the list and the next thing on the list and get, they get really frustrated. I was so frustrated. I was like, I've tried everything . Am I broken? What is what is going on? Tried everything and, and it's not that those things were bad in and of themselves. It's just that they weren't the right tool for the particular building that I needed to sort out. 


-Exactly. I think here, me and some my colleagues, we all think like it just like you are cleaning our teeth, right? If your teeth are very healthy, of course you just do cleaning those kind of things. You're great. But if you have cavity, if you really need some teeth surgery, you still say I tried everything to keep my teeth clean, it won’t solve any real problem, you still have painful no substitute for a root canal.


- Yeah, that's, that's, that's a really good, that's a really good analogy. That's a really good analogy. And a lot of those things are good for helping people who sleep really well to kind of protect their sleep a little bit. But I think once you've kind of crossed that threshold into these thoughts and behaviors and anxieties about sleep and the trying to sleep part, if they can't address those things, and they fall into the category of things that increase sleep anxiety as I as I see it, because it's the trying trying trying trying. Yeah. Especially even like you failed, and it's like over and over and over again. 


-Yeah, and the sleep hygiene stuff you talk about. I know people can just Google it. Find a lot of information. It's sometime for people with insomnia, it feels like a sense of controlling, right? I can manage my environment. I do. And yet the frustration you mentioned, I feel it's so real. And I hear from so many people friends, and it's just, it won't work just by itself then for our listeners, will what kind of time they should consider Okay, this is far more than normal, I need to consider CBTI what what makes people you know, good candidate or should consider the CBTI as an option? 


-I would say it's sometimes difficult for people to see their own thoughts and fears about sleep. But one really obvious one that comes to mind is when somebody says I'm really really tired, I'm getting some sleepy. I've had a long day. Again, and I, I'm almost ready to fall asleep and I go to bed and I put my head on the pillow and then it's like, I am wide awake. I think that person is probably a great candidate for CBTI


Because they they're whatever the behaviors have been they're conditioned to be alert, awake and on high, high vigilance level when they're when they're in their bed, no matter how sleepy they are. So I think that that kind of person is a good candidate. I think somebody who, who knows that they're afraid to go to sleep, because they know it's just going to be a really difficult night again, there's probably another person who might be a good candidate. And obviously there are there are some people for whom cbti is not appropriate, but if you are not in that category of people and you fit those other two, I would say you should definitely ask about getting a referral.


-  Okay, yeah, so um, for so for CBTI, and how long normally to take this method to really start working, how long people should expect, you know, when they think, Oh, I want to try this method, but does it that method take really, really long? What that may look like? 


-So I think, in part because it depends on each person and what the exact kind of intervention is, but I've seen some people sleep turn around in three to four weeks, and sometimes it takes people longer. If you look at kind of standard CBTI. If you can get eight sessions, certainly by then you have all of the tools that you need to kind of bring to you and then you've learned how to apply them in a safe environment and you experimented and you had somebody to guide you. You can then take that with you to continue improving how much sleep you get. But I often will see in in a within a month for a lot of people, at least their sleep quality will improve that usually happens first and then they begin to sleep more and more. That was certainly my experience as well. Yeah,


- Definitely, I think similar to what I see like around four sessions. Some people even less than four session already have at her improvement and some people need more than six some people less than six session can improve and also depends on others group and individual. Yeah, I think similar observations which you experienced.


You mentioned sleep quality. So I think some of our listeners may be curious about you know, what are some good measurements for sleep quality? Like if I want to know whether my sleep quality is okay or not good. What are some things I can use to tell? 


-Right, I find that a lot of people who begin to start working on their sleep will start to write things down, especially when you start talking about diaries. And the number is not the important thing in the beginning, especially. So it wouldn't be a measurement based on how much you've slept. But how you feel during the day, when I've seen in people is that they will, they'll feel a certain way, when they start, they may, they may not be getting more sleep, or maybe just a little bit more sleep than they had before, maybe by week three or four. But they're like, I feel like I can cope with my day so much better, because the sleep is more solid. So the measurement is much it's a more subjective measurement and we can get lost I think sometimes in the kind of academia of, you know, increasing, changing sleep by a certain number of minutes and writing everything down and that can be counterproductive for some people because it goes back to that trying in that controlling and the monitoring piece of it. How you feel during the day is the important thing. Right?


-  Yeah. Similarly, when you talk about the tracking, I think the sleep trackers sometime can really cause more harm. That'd be how.


-  Absolutely, I asked my clients not to use them. After you've gotten over your insomnia, if you're curious, good idea. I mean, I wear one but I don't use it to measure my sleep. And it is. It's satisfying to do measurements, I find it find it satisfying. So when I got the Fitbit, I started watching and I'm like, Oh, I'm going to set up the sleep tracking app. I'm just going to see and I know in my brain that they they're not accurate, but it makes you want to check it because it's information that's available to even though I don't have the sleeping problem anymore. It's kind of addictive to do. So I really try to advise people who are struggling with their sleep too.

Basically, you might, if you need an alarm clock in the morning, that's fine, turn it around and put it on the other side of the room or put it in another room. So you actually have to get up and go in the other room to turn it off. Don't look at your phone to see what time it is, after you've gone to bed. Don't look at your watch, take it off, turn off your apps. It's difficult for people because they're used to doing that. And it doesn't do anybody any good to say, I've looked at my watch now and I've been asleep for two hours and I've been awake for 37 minutes and yesterday it was 330 in the morning and I was up for an hour and a half. It doesn't do anybody any good

to think about that too much. So I think removing the ability to do that is actually helpful for people sleep and helps them not worry about it so much essentially from from a tracking point of view. I think tracking can aid people sleep, sleep, anxiety more than it can do any kind of help. 

-That's a good point. I'm wondering for some people who are so in control, they're like, have you ever met anyone they are not willing to do that they are not willing to let go of the clock, the time the tracking, they are just like so anxious, so unsettled. It's very difficult for them to follow your suggestions

-If they get better, they get better slower, because they have that that level of anxiety. And if somebody has what seems to be a very high level of clinical level anxiety, I'll often refer them and try to refer them to somebody with some knowledge and sleep or we work kind of more collaboratively. Because you have to become confident enough in your natural ability to sleep to let go of that need to control it.

And if somebody is used to only getting a few hours of sleep, like their desperation for that attachment is greater, I think. So they cling to it a little bit more than somebody who maybe get more sleep than that. Okay, depending on how much they view that as a bad thing as a threat, some people will get a few hours of sleep, and they they're not as fast as somebody who gets seven, but they're really, really worried that they're not getting heat.

-  And that myth, that myth of the eight hours drives a lot of people's anxiety as well.

-  They read on internet forums, you're gonna have all these horrible diseases if you don't get eight hours of sleep every night and it doesn't it's not not true. It's not helpful. not helpful information. 

-Definitely. Yeah, that's interesting. When you mentioned this age reminds me have the hyper arousal component you mentioned very at the very beginning. So I know for people with insomnia, they possibly have a lot of anxiety about sleep itself and possibly have anxiety about other things too for some of them. Yeah, how does it relates to hyper arousal, how hyper arousal really to sleep? 


-Right. And so, that kind of hyper arousal, at least in my experience, it will permeate everything in a person's life. In some ways that hyper arousal becomes functional to overcome the fatigue during the day so that people can do the things that they need to do. The problem is that you can't then switch. You can't flick that switch and turn it off. So please, people will sleep really lightly, and they'll they'll think they're not sleeping. And sometimes they're sleeping and then it's difficult to know without a without asleep, see, but I suspect a lot of people who claim they don't sleep at all ever are sleeping, they're just so hyper aroused that they're the just below the surface of their conscious kind of waking brain all the time, because they're feeling threatened all the time.

And I think mindfulness practice can be helpful in kind of reducing that overall level of arousal, and takes a lot of practice. And I suggest usually people practice on things that are not as threatening as losing sleep. Again, to avoid using techniques and strategies like hammers on a nail, but to use them in everyday situations that are not so kind of emotionally loaded, or perceived as threatening, obscene, develop a little bit of skill and practicing using these things, to kind of bring that level of arousal down. Over time. It's definitely not an overnight, an overnight thing by any stretch.

- Yeah, I like the suggestions you gave that how to help people, you know, not look at the clock and not tracking their sleep. And if they're too hyper Raul's the which gets into the way of their sleep, they should consider maybe mindfulness, this kind of training this practice can be helpful to really bring them more to the connect in connect with their physical symptoms. Their present moment pathway can really lower that activity. Some people, some people look at mindfulness and meditation is kind of in the woowoo category. But there's actually really good evidence that the way that you you think and you perceive things, has a neurophysiological effect, and has a really direct observable effect.

So I would try to focus on that piece of it rather than pushing it pushing these as opportunities as a way as kind of being metaphysical I certainly did at the beginning, because I kind of like I want the evidence, I was definitely in one of the trackers.

And it took me a while to kind of realize Actually, I just let go of my idea of myself is only doing things a certain way and open myself up to this. And there's evidence for it. I'm missing a trick if I if I don't try to view this as an opportunity. And those opportunities helped me in my life kind of more broadly, as well. And there's so many different strands of those things that you can explore and see kind of what, what tugs at you and what kind of resonates with you. I mean, is that I would say, look on the internet, it's got its pluses and it's minuses doing that.

- Yeah, definitely. So how people can find more good information about CBTI, like, do you write anything like your… do you have a blog introduce about that? Or is there any, like, reasonable resources that reliable resources people can turn to? 

-Mm hmm. So there are some registers of people who practice CBT. If people want to get in, in contact with somebody who is a clinical professional in the States, I would have to look them up, I think the University of Pennsylvania, they have a list. And there are others in different different parts of the world. And certainly, if you are interested in the kind of the more mindfulness side of things are million different, almost too many too much choice. And I say pick something and go with it in their mindfulness centers, everywhere, literally, on every corner, whether they're open now, at the moment or not.

Going on zoom as well. And in terms of CBTI, and, and my work people can find me online. I'm Tracy, the sleep coach. co. uk. I put the website up not too long ago, there are a few posts there. And I also run a Facebook group called sound sleep strategies, which is based on CBT I and other related evidence based techniques for helping people improve their sleep. And I'm on Instagram, Instagram and Pinterest. Same thing Tracy Tracy, the sleep coach, I get to see the sleep coach. Easy to remember and easy to find. 

-Hmm, yeah, I will put all this information in the show notes also for people to click to look to refer back to. 

-Yeah, I'm happy to put together a list of resources and contact places for people. I can certainly do that for the UK and probably the US as well.

-  Oh, definitely, that'll be great. I can also put it on the website. My podcast website has a resource list. I put like a SM website and how to find the sleep Center website. I believe you pins literal possibly on there too. If there's any good resource around the UK or anything, you know, I would love to get that from you and put it on last night. Great. Yeah, I hope more people get to know CBTI. You know, I really?

-  Yeah, definitely at the end of the show. I'm thinking you know, if all the listeners are listening right now, they are, you know, have some sleep concerns. What if you have one thing you want to say to them? Well, that may be.. maybe a hard question.

-  I think.. I think it's not hard, but it sounds trite without the context and is trying not to worry so much about not sleeping is a difficult one without the context of the rest of the show. But I think worrying too much and trying too hard to sleep because we can't control sleep is only counterproductive. Right, right. Yeah. Hopefully when people hear this sentence, they already listened to the whole show. They got a basic idea that our biology can be so strong, so trust our body trust our own biology. Our belief system is not broken. We are not broken, not broken and you you can't forget how to sleep.

-  I like that. Yeah, this is wonderful. Tracy very nice talking to you about CBT I think you possibly are the first guest on the podcast, really trying to explain the ins and outs about CBT for insomnia CBTI this method for our audience.

Dr. Yishan Xucognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia, CBTi, CBT-I, insomnia, sleep coach, sleep psychologistComment